Were the men of Einsatzkommandos killers without exception?

[Reuven Koret]

1. Can somebody explain me why the SS or the police (?) organized something like the Einsatzkommandos (100 –150 men units) and were the members of those Einsatzkommandos all voluntaries from the Wehrmacht or police(?)?

2. Was a Scharfuehrer or Oberscharfuehrer for example the lowest rank in these units? As far as I know most of the EK members were not simple Sturmmannen. So most of them must be ex-police officers and that means to me that for example a Scharfuehrer was the man who had to kill the jews, poles with the rifle or a hammer. Right?

Reuven

[Caldric]

Almost all of the unit commanders were lawyers actually.

Members came from all different branches of the SS, leadership schools, middle and high ranking members of the Security Police both Gestapo and Criminal department. Many were sent because they were to wild for their local units in Germany, they also came from the Waffen-SS which contributed most of the enlisted men, of course high ranking bureaucrats within the Reich Security Main Office, the police for the SS I guess you would say (internal police) and where many other horrors came from. Most of the leaders as I said were lawyers, some were Doctors (Medical) and Educators almost all of them held Doctoral level degrees. Men like the inhumane Karl Jager came from commanding secret police attachments. Some came from the infamous Aktion-T4 program.

I am not sure what the minimum level was but I will look and see what I can find.

They had one purpose really and that was the eradication of "undesirables" on the Eastern Front. They were called rear security but they had nothing to do with the war really, they were just murderers. They organized locals to do a great deal of the killing also.

[demonio]

One exeption springs to mind ?

One character whose name was Von Dem Bach-Zewelski (or something like that) refused orders to shoot a group of half jews

[Caldric]

One exeption springs to mind ?

One character whose name was Von Dem Bach-Zewelski (or something like that) refused orders to shoot a group of half jews

Bach-Zewelski had no problems killing on the Eastern Front. He was the one that staged a shooting for one of Himmler's visits to the killing zones. He may have refused to kill half-jews I am not sure but he did break down and have a nervous breakdown or something from all of the killing.

[demonio]

Sounds right . Only someone like Wirth or Dirlewanger could do such "duties" and handle them like a walk in the park. I think the group he refused to shoot were half German and Half Jew. Does this absolve him of his eastern european activities ? Hell No.

[CHRISCHA]

There were also members of the Army within the Einsatzgruppen.

Because a lot of the Einsatzgruppen were disbanded later in the war, many members returned to units or took up different roles. Many ex-police went on to serve in police combat regiments fighting partisans.

There was no minimum rank, men merely retained the rank they held before posting.

The answer to the main question is that a lot of the police members returned to their duties post war. A police force was needed, and because the Einsatzgruppen came under SS authority, the police officers were not considered a criminal orginisation. (Obviously many policemen carried out correct duties within the Reich, most were not guilty of crimes).

[demonio]

You know what would be really interesting is to see how their (the EG members) psyche held up after completion of their activites. Ie did any commit suicide, go mad, beg for forgiveness,turn religious etc ?

Also pretty interesting that most were lawyers or well educated carrying out the most morally debased tasks imaginable.

[Scott Smith]

You know what would be really interesting is to see how their (the EG members) psyche held up after completion of their activites. Ie did any commit suicide, go mad, beg for forgiveness,turn religious etc ?

Also pretty interesting that most were lawyers or well educated carrying out the most morally debased tasks imaginable.

Why then wouldn't Soviet forces come unglued after participating in the same kinds of massacres? The answer is that they didn't either. It was just good clean patriotic fun, like lancing a boil from the body-politic. The notion of massive nervous breakdowns is basically a myth concocted at Nuremberg and intended to explain the purpose of gaschambers (which then proves Genocide) when shooting is (or would have been) far more efficient and logistically simpler.

[demonio]

um what ??????? How are you getting all of that from my pos po post.

I dont mean it if its comes across disrespectful. Ive only just regained my composure after nearly having some type of attack brought on from laughing too hard Scott. I hope i did not offend you.

[Roberto]

You know what would be really interesting is to see how their (the EG members) psyche held up after completion of their activites. Ie did any commit suicide, go mad, beg for forgiveness,turn religious etc ?

Also pretty interesting that most were lawyers or well educated carrying out the most morally debased tasks imaginable.

Why then wouldn't Soviet forces come unglued after participating in the same kinds of massacres? The answer is that they didn't either. It was just good clean patriotic fun, like lancing a boil from the body-politic. The notion of massive nervous breakdowns is basically a myth concocted at Nuremberg and intended to explain the purpose of gaschambers (which then proves Genocide) when shooting is (or would have been) far more efficient and logistically simpler.

Staple "Revisionist" baloney. The true believers seem willingly unable to understand that desktop warriors - which is what many of the Einsatzgruppen killers were before joining these outfits at Heydrich's insistence that they see some "frontline duty", if I remember correctly - were likely to succumb in the long run to the psychological stress of having to shoot helpless, innocent civilians, largely women, children and elderly people (whereas the Soviet NKVD killing squads mostly shot adult males, so much for the "same kind of massacres" herring) in or into mass graves, hearing their screams of terror and pain, their crying and wailing and their pleas for mercy, seeing their blood, brain matter and bone fragments fly all over the place including the killer's clothes and boots. The understandably nefarious psychological effect of long-term exposure to such stress is well documented, i.a. in the autobiography of Auschwitz-Birkenau commander Rudolf Höß.

[…]Before the mass extermination of the Jews began, the Russian politruks and political commissars were liquidated in almost all the concentration camps during 1941 and 1942.
In accordance with a secret order issued by Hitler, these Russian politruks and political commissars were combed out of all the prisoner-of-war camps by special detachments from the Gestapo. When identified, they were transferred to the nearest concentration camp for liquidation. It was made known that these measures were taken because the Russians had been killing all German soldiers who were party members or belonged to special sections of the NSDAP, especially members of the SS, and also because the political officials of the Red Army had been ordered, if taken prisoner, to create every kind of disturbance in the prisoner-of-war camps and their places of employment and to carry out sabotage wherever possible.
The political officials of the Red Army thus identified were brought to Auschwitz for liquidation. The first, smaller transports of them were executed by firing squads.
While I was away on duty, my deputy, Fritsch, the commander of the protective custody camp, first tried gas for these killings. It was a preparation of prussic acid, called Cyclon B, which was used in the camp as an insecticide and of which there was always a stock on hand. On my return, Fritzsch reported this to me, and the gas was used again for the next transport.
The gassing was carried out in the detention cells of Block 11. Protected by a gas mask, I watched the killing myself. In the crowded cells death came instantaneously the moment the Cyclon B was thrown in. A short, almost smothered cry, and it was all over. During this first experience of gassing people, I did not fully realize what was happening, perhaps because I was too impressed by the whole procedure. I have a clearer recollection of the gassing of nine hundred Russians which took place shortly afterwards in the old crematorium, since the use of Block 11 for this purpose caused too much trouble. While the transport was detraining, holes were pierced in the earth and concrete ceiling of the mortuary. The Russians were ordered to undress in an anteroom; they then quietly entered the mortuary, for they had been told they were to be deloused. The whole transport exactly filled the mortuary to capacity. The doors were then sealed and the gas shaken down through the holes in the roof. I do not know how long this killing took. For a little while a humming sound could be heard. When the powder was thrown in, there were cries of ‘Gas!’, then a great bellowing, and the trapped prisoners hurled themselves against both the doors. But the doors held. They were opened several hours later, so that the place might be aired. It was then that I saw, for the first time, gassed bodies in the mass.
It made me feel uncomfortable and I shuddered, although I had imagined that death by gassing would be worse than it was. I had always thought that the victims would experience a terrible choking sensation. But the bodies, without exception, showed no signs of convulsion. The doctors explained to me that the prussic acid had a paralyzing effect on the lungs, but its action was so quick and strong that death came before the convulsions set in, and in this its effects differed from those produced by carbon monoxide or by general oxygen deficiency.
The killing of Russian prisoners-of-war did not cause me much concern at the time. The order had been given, and I had to carry it out. I must even admit that this gassing set my mind at rest, for the mass extermination of the Jews was to start soon and at that time neither Eichmann nor I was certain how these mass killings were to be carried out. It would be by gas, but we did not know which gas or how it was to be used. Now we had the gas, and we had established a procedure. I always shuddered at the prospect of carrying out exterminations by shooting, when I thought of the vast numbers concerned, and of the women and children. The shooting of hostages, and the group executions ordered by the Reichsführer SS or by the Reich Security Head Office had been enough for me. I was therefore relieved to think that we were to be spared all these blood baths, and that the victims too would be spared suffering until their last moment came. It was precisely this which had caused me the greatest concern when I had heard Eichmann’s description of Jews being mown down by the Special Squads armed with machine-guns and machine pistols. Many gruesome scenes are said to have taken place, people running away after being shot, the finishing off of the wounded and particularly of the women and children. Many members of the Einsatzkommandos, unable to endure wading through blood any longer, had committed suicide. Some had even gone mad. Most of the members of these Kommandos had to rely on alcohol when carrying out their horrible work.[my emphasis] According to Höfle’s description, the men employed at Globocnik’s extermination centers consumed amazing quantities of alcohol.[…]

If someone should feel like suggesting that statements like the above were dictated to poor Höß by his Polish captors, he is welcome to try. It will give me the opportunity to ask this person some interesting questions.

[Debbie]

To take this discussion off on another tangent, and to answer Reuven's original question, "Were the men of Einsatzkommandos killers without exception?" in another light, I would like to point out that not all Einsatzgruppen units were formed for the express purpose of killing.

The term itself, is translated to mean "special unit" (please correct me if I am wrong in the translation of this term). The Einsatzgruppen that most of us are familiar with were the "killing squads." However, there were other special units formed which were also labeled Einsatzgruppen. For example, the East Ministry formed special units to assist with their ERR (Einstazstab Reichleiter Rosenberg) tasks. These units, which included the same chain of command as the killing units, included Sonderkommando's, etc. but were sent into occupied territories with varied purposes such as research and plunder.

Once such Sonderkommando unit appears to have been sent to Russia only to do research on the Volksdeutsche living in Russia and to locate and ship to Germany any pertinent paperwork on the Volksdeutsche.

Other units were sent into occupied territories to locate and transport valuable art from museums, private collections, churches, libraries, etc. back to the Reich. Still others were used to plunder Jewish homes, businesses, and art collections.

IMHO, one must keep an open mind about the terms being used, and not take them to mean only one thing, but instead to keep on eye on the larger picture.

Debbie

[Caldric]

It is actually SS-Einsatzgruppe with means SS Task Group. I know of none of these units that did not committ murder and extermination on the Eastern Front.

http://www.datasync.com/~davidg59/einsatz.html

[Debbie]

Thank you Caldric for the clarification. So it would be the Einsatzgruppen formed under RSHA that were the killing squads. Would you happen to know if a listing of the SS who were in these squads was ever found? I would be very interesting in seeing that list of people if it is available somewhere.

Debbie

[David Thompson]

Debbie -- For an excellent listing of the senior officers of the RSHA Einsatzgruppen, Einsatzkommandos and Sonderkommandos, I recommend my fellow moderator Michael Miller's ABR website, which has a lot of information on that subject at:

http://www.geocities.com/~orion47/SS-PO ... uppen.html

French MacLean has written a book which you might find of interest, "The Field Men: The SS Officers who Led the Einsatzkommandos - The Nazi Mobile Killing Units" (Schiffer Military History, Atglen [PA]: 1999) which has biographies of 380 officers and photographs of a large number of them.

However, there is no comprehensive listing of members of these units that I've ever seen or even heard of.

[Caldric]

You are correct Debbie that other units may have been created and called Einzatsgruppen or whatever, these are just words that every country still use, almost all US Police forces have some kind of Task Force, Drug Task Force etc. I think however when we speak of war crimes we are talking specifically of the units built by Himmler and Heydrich(sp) in 1941 for "security" on the Eastern Front. I quote security because we all know they had nothing to do with security and everything to do with eliminating people deemed dangerous for racial or ideological reasons.

I am sure you could have special Task Force to curtail crime within the Reich by police units or Task Force to fight fires. However as I said when people speak of SS-Einzatsgruppen there is only one that comes to mind.

I will second David recommendation for MacLean’s book, I own the Cruel Hunters and he is very through in his work. There is also Masters of Death by Richard Rhodes that covers the SS-Einzatsgruppen and the invention of the Holocaust.