Panther 131 at Cheneux

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
Der Rittmeister

Panther 131 at Cheneux

Post by Der Rittmeister » 19 Oct 2020 21:33

Hello forum! I am currently researching the Battle of Cheneux and i struggle to find out what happened to this Panther Ausf. G number 131. I can't find out how it got destroyed. It has 13 different holes in it with different calibers i think. I also can't figure out how it got taken from that direction considering that the village of Cheneux is behind the wreck, upwards. The other side, downwards is towards the Cheneux bridge where the Germans came from. Does anybody have any information on this?

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Thanks in advance for the effort to help me!

:D

Michael Kenny
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Re: Panther 131 at Cheneux

Post by Michael Kenny » 19 Oct 2020 22:44

Page 108-117 Duel In The Mist 2 (Chapter 9, Air Attack On Kampfgruppe Peiper) has 4 photos of this Panther and the claim is it was knocked out by air attack and burnt out. Clearly it was pushed off the road later and the loose plate on the hull top indicates an internal explosion. The penetrations must have been inflicted at a later date.

Yoozername
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Re: Panther 131 at Cheneux

Post by Yoozername » 20 Oct 2020 00:39

Another image.

Image

Yoozername
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Re: Panther 131 at Cheneux

Post by Yoozername » 20 Oct 2020 04:48

Der Rittmeister wrote:
19 Oct 2020 21:33
Hello forum! I am currently researching the Battle of Cheneux and i struggle to find out what happened to this Panther Ausf. G number 131. I can't find out how it got destroyed. It has 13 different holes in it with different calibers i think. I also can't figure out how it got taken from that direction considering that the village of Cheneux is behind the wreck, upwards. The other side, downwards is towards the Cheneux bridge where the Germans came from. Does anybody have any information on this?
I believe that the village is actually to the left of the Panther. That road goes around to the village. The bridge can be seen in this pic....

http://www.battle-of-the-bulge.be/wp-co ... ervais.jpg

The road splits before the village after the bridge, and the Panther is on the road that splits to the right. Perhaps they were trying to outflank the village.

I don't think it was pushed off the road. If it was destroyed by air attack, I would guess it might have been a lucky direct hit by a bomb right above the driver/radio operator plate.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Panther 131 at Cheneux

Post by Michael Kenny » 20 Oct 2020 05:10

Duel In The Mist 2 says it was a column of vehicles with several(4 half tracks?) hit. Maybe another Panther (101) but was recovered States this Panther (131) 'blocked the road' but was not the lead vehicle.

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Re: Panther 131 at Cheneux

Post by Yoozername » 20 Oct 2020 05:37

This image shows the rear of the Panther. If this was bulldozed off the road, both the road and ditch, would show damage. I generally don't think pushing 45 ton AFVs uphill, across a ditch, is advisable.

I would guess the Panther was pulling back during the air attack, and drove off the road.
rear.jpg
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Michael Kenny
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Re: Panther 131 at Cheneux

Post by Michael Kenny » 20 Oct 2020 06:00

The source Duel In The Mist 2 by Haasler, Macdougall, Vosters &n Weber:
ddf 6-20185eeeeeeeeeeee-vert.jpg
Note that there are the remains of 3 other vehicles in the photos and all are pushed off the road
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Yoozername
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Re: Panther 131 at Cheneux

Post by Yoozername » 20 Oct 2020 15:55

Note that there are the remains of 3 other vehicles in the photos and all are pushed off the road
Can you post those pictures?

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Re: Panther 131 at Cheneux

Post by Yoozername » 20 Oct 2020 16:12

This photo shows the town and red circle shows the location of the Panther. It is oriented towards the top of the image.

Image

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Re: Panther 131 at Cheneux

Post by Yoozername » 20 Oct 2020 16:18

Michael Kenny wrote:
19 Oct 2020 22:44
Page 108-117 Duel In The Mist 2 (Chapter 9, Air Attack On Kampfgruppe Peiper) has 4 photos of this Panther and the claim is it was knocked out by air attack and burnt out. Clearly it was pushed off the road later and the loose plate on the hull top indicates an internal explosion. The penetrations must have been inflicted at a later date.
So, the source does not say it was 'burnt out'? It says it was sufficiently damaged to prevent it from moving any further?

How is 'clearly' pushed off the road? From the side? From the front. I have time on D7s and M9 Ace, I want to know how you think that is clear.

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Prosper Vandenbroucke
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Re: Panther 131 at Cheneux

Post by Prosper Vandenbroucke » 20 Oct 2020 16:55

Hello Rittmeister.
I was responding you about the battle of Cheneux in an ohther thread:
viewtopic.php?f=76&t=252855
Kindly regards from Belgium.
Prosper :wink: :wink:

Michael Kenny
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Re: Panther 131 at Cheneux

Post by Michael Kenny » 20 Oct 2020 16:59

Yoozername wrote:
20 Oct 2020 16:18

So, the source does not say it was 'burnt out'? It says it was sufficiently damaged to prevent it from moving any further?
It is Footnoted as 343. This is a ' Memo of Hans Hennecke' (no date given) and it is listed as 'Unpublished Sources from The Malmedy Case'.
The footnote says 'according to Hennecke the tank burnt out'.

SS-Untersturmführer Hans Hennecke was sentenced to death at his trial in 1948 but the sentence was commuted and he was released in 1953.

Everything I have posted can be easily checked by consulting the book in question.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Panther 131 at Cheneux

Post by Michael Kenny » 20 Oct 2020 17:02

Yoozername wrote:
20 Oct 2020 15:55

Can you post those pictures?
I do not need to. You have already posted the photos that include the vehicles. 2 of these photos are on this page.

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Re: Panther 131 at Cheneux

Post by Yoozername » 20 Oct 2020 21:15

Michael Kenny wrote:
20 Oct 2020 16:59
Yoozername wrote:
20 Oct 2020 16:18

So, the source does not say it was 'burnt out'? It says it was sufficiently damaged to prevent it from moving any further?
It is Footnoted as 343. This is a ' Memo of Hans Hennecke' (no date given) and it is listed as 'Unpublished Sources from The Malmedy Case'.
The footnote says 'according to Hennecke the tank burnt out'.

SS-Untersturmführer Hans Hennecke was sentenced to death at his trial in 1948 but the sentence was commuted and he was released in 1953.

Everything I have posted can be easily checked by consulting the book in question.
Well, you added conjecture for sure. Specifically...
Clearly it was pushed off the road later and the loose plate on the hull top indicates an internal explosion. The penetrations must have been inflicted at a later date.
Again, how is this clearly seen by you in the photos? What evidence do you see, with your extensive photo analysis, that it was pushed off the road? The top plate was blown out by an internal explosion? That seems odd also. I have only seen one Panther that had that plate blown out. And it was missing its turret.

Given the penetrations on the Panther, it would seem they come from the road area just over the bridge. Is it possible the Germans shot it up after they were chased back over the bridge? That would be the correct way to express conjecture.

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Re: Panther 131 at Cheneux

Post by Ken S. » 20 Oct 2020 23:08

"The Ardennes, 1944-1945" by Christer Bergstrom
Screenshot 2020-10-20 at 6.05.22 PM.png
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