SS-Panzer-Regiment 12 in the Normandy

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Richard Anderson
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Re: SS-Panzer-Regiment 12 in the Normandy

Post by Richard Anderson » 03 May 2021 15:41

Michael Kenny wrote:
03 May 2021 08:22
Richard Anderson wrote:
18 Nov 2020 00:04
B Squadron is murkier on dates, but lost 5 KO and 7 damaged, probably all on 7 June.
The original document is a count of all losses June 6th-11th. B Squadron in the only bit where there is no breakdown by date of the losses. It is entirely possible some of the B Squadron losses are from other dates.
Ah, that clarifies things. Thanks as always Michael. Cheers!
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Tom from Cornwall
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Re: SS-Panzer-Regiment 12 in the Normandy

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 04 May 2021 20:04

Michael Kenny wrote:
03 May 2021 07:42
It is clear that Reynolds read the June Appendix in the Sherbrooke's War Diary but he either can't read properly or wilfully misrepresented the numbers (as in conflating categories and double-counting) in the hope no one would check. I checked. Reynolds got it wrong.
Michael,

Great stuff as always. I was impressed with the research that Michael Reynolds put into his first book about the Battle of the Bulge but got the impression his later books were churned out without as much thought/analysis/concern for accuracy.

Regards
Tom

Michael Kenny
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Re: SS-Panzer-Regiment 12 in the Normandy

Post by Michael Kenny » 05 May 2021 08:55

We get lots of German claims about this or that Allied Unit suffering 'massive' tank casualties but reality does not always match. For instance this Unit (2 Canadian Armoured Regiment, Sherbrooke Fusiliers, 2 Canadian Armoured Brigade) have this in their August War Diary:
Screebbbnshot_62.jpg
9 tanks destroyed in all of August!
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wwilson
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Re: SS-Panzer-Regiment 12 in the Normandy

Post by wwilson » 08 May 2021 08:49

@Michael Kenney

Interesting there are more losses from mines and indirect fire than antitank weapons. That seems to have been a general 'case' in the Second World War, although I may well be mistaken.

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Re: SS-Panzer-Regiment 12 in the Normandy

Post by Michael Kenny » 09 May 2021 06:49

Let us hope the new book is better with the numbers than Meyer in his 12th SS Book. On page 163 ( hardback, 5.2 Operation GOODWOOD section) he completely mangles the actual loss figures and uses this distortion to show how 'high' tank losses were in 5th Guards Armoured Brigade. Was this deliberate or just seeing what you expect to see and not bothering to double-check for errors?

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Re: SS-Panzer-Regiment 12 in the Normandy

Post by Cult Icon » 12 May 2021 13:25

Maybe the Canadian records are inaccurate and don't give the number of "damaged" on the Canadian side and in reality there was recovery & repair. A lot of tanks are knocked out and require only minor repairs to be brought into action. Doesn't necessarily mean it made it to the typewriter. Maybe the British-Canadian records understate the extent of their losses and the German claims are the more accurate than the typewriter says throughout the Normandy campaign?

The German records omit the number of repaired tanks entirely and undercount their write offs. So this is opaque as well.

Of course if one's fanatical, multi-decade agenda is to downplay the extent of British-Canadian losses then they can roll with the typewriter argument for rhetoric purposes.

In the end it is quixotic and much ado about nothing, the actual tank casualties have been, for the most part, entirely lost to history. Only clues, personal accounts, claims, and what made it to the typewriter remain.

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:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: SS-Panzer-Regiment 12 in the Normandy

Post by Cult Icon » 12 May 2021 13:28

I am currently in the process of reading the two newly released 12 SS books. Both books repeat the story of disproportionately high Canadian tank losses at Authie.

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Re: SS-Panzer-Regiment 12 in the Normandy

Post by Cult Icon » 12 May 2021 14:00

wwilson wrote:
08 May 2021 08:49

Interesting there are more losses from mines and indirect fire than antitank weapons. That seems to have been a general 'case' in the Second World War, although I may well be mistaken.
The vast majority of significant losses in normandy were from AT weapons. Mines will disable a tank & make it prime for minor repairs if recoverable. Artillery can damage parts of the tank and disable it too. Sometimes tanks are totally lost through direct hits by artillery. The most common cause of a write-off is if the AFV is penetrated and goes on fire, leading to a total loss of the vehicle. An underrated variable is if one side controls the territory where the tank was knocked out. If they do they can recover it and repair it, and use it again. Otherwise it is a total loss. Or if the enemy makes the effort to brew up the tank by pouring gasoline into it with a jerrycan or detonate explosives inside of it.

IIRC the German records report that 6% of their tank kills came from panzerfaust and panzershreck in Normandy. However, like mines the significance of armor knocked out with bazooka type weapons is less as they inflict less damage inside of a tank than a 76mm or 75mm AP shell. The hollow charge can go through, inflict 1-3 casualties on the crew while the remaining crew members drive the tank back to base.

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Re: SS-Panzer-Regiment 12 in the Normandy

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 12 May 2021 15:09

Cult Icon wrote:
12 May 2021 13:25
Maybe the Canadian records are inaccurate and don't give the number of "damaged" on the Canadian side and in reality there was recovery & repair.
Or maybe they are accurate and, as they say, don't give the number of 'damaged' tanks but only those "lost".

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Tom

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Re: SS-Panzer-Regiment 12 in the Normandy

Post by Michael Kenny » 12 May 2021 17:42

Cult Icon wrote:
12 May 2021 13:25
Maybe the Canadian records are inaccurate and don't give the number of "damaged" on the Canadian side and in reality there was recovery & repair.
The numbers I gave are accurate and checkable. Anyone can look at the period documents and see for themselves. However instead we get the usual maybe/if/but/perhaps quibbling of one who prefers myth over reality. I have read many accounts of the 12th attack on June 7th and apart from Meyer (who makes mention of possible casualties) none of them give anything but the German total losses. No mention of how many Pz IV were damaged so what exactly is the problem when an accurate count of Canadian total losses is used?

Cult Icon wrote:
12 May 2021 13:25
A lot of tanks are knocked out and require only minor repairs to be brought into action. Doesn't necessarily mean it made it to the typewriter. Maybe the British-Canadian records understate the extent of their losses and the German claims are the more accurate than the typewriter says throughout the Normandy campaign?
First you have to know how both sides dealt with their casualties and the methods used to deal with the problem. You fall at the first hurdle. The 27 CAR War Dairy gives a very accurate (compared to the normal way a Unit records it losses) listing of their casualties but 12th SS do not. Thus it is impossible to give a like-for-like comparison. Only the number of total losses can be compared and that is what I did. I kept to the checkable facts. Now I understand there are those who prefer the old way of doing things. The 'German claims are the more accurate' canard where every single Allies tank casualty is compared to German total losses. A dishonest method but a very common way to inflate Allied losses and minimise German losses.

Cult Icon wrote:
12 May 2021 13:25
Of course if one's fanatical, multi-decade agenda is to downplay the extent of British-Canadian losses then they can roll with the typewriter argument for rhetoric purposes
So using a Canadian War Diary that records the Units losses is now a 'fanatical, multi-decade agenda is to downplay the extent of British-Canadian' I guess the fact you default to insult means you have given up on a factual rebuttal. Is reality that painful for you?

Cult Icon wrote:
12 May 2021 13:25
In the end it is quixotic and much ado about nothing, the actual tank casualties have been, for the most part, entirely lost to history.
You could not be more wrong. The losses listed in the 27 CAR War Diary are the most complete I have ever seen. They would not be out of place in a technical study of losses and they appear to have (for the early months at least) kept all the paperwork used to record their losses. Even their B Vehicle counts have survived and most even give the Census numbers. For the actions around Authie on June 7th 1944 we have a very accurate table of Canadian losses. Have a little weep and then learn to live with the new reality.
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Michael Kenny
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Re: SS-Panzer-Regiment 12 in the Normandy

Post by Michael Kenny » 12 May 2021 17:44

Cult Icon wrote:
12 May 2021 13:28
I am currently in the process of reading the two newly released 12 SS books. Both books repeat the story of disproportionately high Canadian tank losses at Authie.
You have to wonder why this is so when the Canadian records are there for all to consult. It must be deliberate. It is a very sad state of affairs.

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Re: SS-Panzer-Regiment 12 in the Normandy

Post by Michael Kenny » 12 May 2021 17:50

Tom from Cornwall wrote:
12 May 2021 15:09


Or maybe they are accurate and, as they say, don't give the number of 'damaged' tanks but only those "lost".
You are wasting your time. Like Dr. Malcolm Crowe these people do not realise they are dead. They see only what they want to see.

I wish every War Diary had such data.
Sample Aug 18 1944
oocihm.l.jpg
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Re: SS-Panzer-Regiment 12 in the Normandy

Post by Michael Kenny » 12 May 2021 18:39

Cult Icon wrote:
12 May 2021 13:25
A lot of tanks are knocked out and require only minor repairs to be brought into action. Doesn't necessarily mean it made it to the typewriter.
Are you sure about that?
ooty.jpg
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Tom from Cornwall
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Re: SS-Panzer-Regiment 12 in the Normandy

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 13 May 2021 17:29

Michael Kenny wrote:
12 May 2021 17:50
I wish every War Diary had such data.
Yeah, and it makes you wonder if they all did at one point and then some admin wallah took out all the bits they thought weren't of interest for the official historians.

I suspect that Technical Adjutants in British units kept very similar records, and am sure that REME workshops definitely did, but it does seem sadly that only a very few survive. Having said that, it makes finding Vehicle Records a Eureka moment in the Archives! :D

Of course, the German records are equally opaque and as you say often used inadequately by historians to either accidently or deliberately distort the record. "Panzer Aces", "high scorers", etc, etc!! :roll: :roll:

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Tom

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Re: SS-Panzer-Regiment 12 in the Normandy

Post by Richard Anderson » 17 May 2021 05:11

Tom from Cornwall wrote:
13 May 2021 17:29
Yeah, and it makes you wonder if they all did at one point and then some admin wallah took out all the bits they thought weren't of interest for the official historians.
Yes, they did, at least in the American Army. The vehicle record cards were destroyed, apparently in the 1950s and the battery firing records were destroyed in the 1960s...to make room.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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