Hitler's plans for Slavic nations

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
David Thompson
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Post by David Thompson » 25 Aug 2005 01:15

Michael -- You wrote:
If anyone disagrees with the proposition that the Polish population as a whole has on balance drawn a socio-economic benefit from the removal of the Jewish and German minporities from Polish territory, he can post the basis of his disagreement on this Forum. That would be preferable to wielding the big stick of censorship of statements that one does not like.
The warning stands. The only things that get censored here are gross violations of the forum and section rules, or continued violations of the rules after several warnings. I am confident that, if you set your mind to it, you can craft a less offensive phrasing than "the German Government did the Poles' work for them by getting rid of the Jews."

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Post by Molobo » 25 Aug 2005 01:46

The objective fact is that the Polish nation as a collective benefited from the removal of two ethnic groups from its territory.
Several errors.
Measured by what values.Poland lost a vibrant, dynamic culture contributing to culture, economy and science of the state.Not only that but Poles themselfs were removed as an ethnic group.And of course the statement "removed" is false since both Germans and Jews exist in Poland to this very day.
The removal of ethnic Germans meant that Poles were able to occupy and utilise land and other property that had formerly been occupied by Germans.
You seem to forget that what Poles got ware only ruins they had to rebuild,not only that they lost Lwow, Wilno and other territories, their capital was destroyed and country had damages worth of 650 billion of $.
The removal of the Jewish minority meant that Poles were able to move into the socio-economic niche formerly occupied by the Jews, namely urban traders and artisans.
This is false, Poles were artisants and urban traders as well.
Before the Second World War, there was a recognised problem in Poland of excessive rural population, which was mainly Polish in ethnicity. That problem could not be solved because the socio-economic niches into which that excess agricultural population would normally have flowed were occupied by other ethnic groups.
Again this is false as it ignores the Belarussian and Ukrainian agricultural population.It seems Mills has fallen to stereotype of Poles being only uneducated peasants.Furthermore limiting rural workers can be done in other ways then mass murder.


The flow of surplus Polish agricultural population into the urban socio-economic niche formerly occupied by Jews was actually initiated by the German administration during the war itself, with its policy of training Poles as artisans and industrial workers so that they could take the place of Jewish artisans who had been eliminated.
This is a blatant lie and falsfication on Mills part.German plans envisioned a mass of uneducated workers with only basing knowledge.
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/nca/nca- ... 04-03.html
[Page 646]

(6) Closing of schools. The program outlined by Frank on 3 October 1939 as the program he intended to administer as Governor General

"closing of all educational institutions, especially technical schools and colleges in order to prevent the growth of the new Polish intelligentsia." (EC-344-16 & 17)

This decision was taken by Frank before it was determined what schools, if any, might be closed because of failure of instructors to refrain from reference to politics, or refusal to submit to inspection by the occupying authorities. Moreover, the policy was
[Page 647]
determined. as indicated, in furtherance of the purpose of preventing the rise of an educated class in Poland.
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/nca/nca- ... 04-01.html
Most important, however, in Frank's opinion, was the fact that by destroying Polish industry, its subsequent reconstruction after the war would become more difficult, if not impossible, so that Poland would be reduced to its proper position as an agrarian country which would have to depend upon Germany for importation of industrial products." (EC-344-16 & 17)
Furthermore Germans started an organised program of exterminating educated class in Poland:
http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/oc ... intro.html
The aim of the German occupation policy was to utilise Poland as a German living space, to exploit the material resources of the country and to maximise the use of Polish manpower as a reservoir of virtual or actual slave labour. The Polish nation was to be effectively reduced to the status of helotry, its political, religious and intellectual leadership destroyed. The agents targeted with accomplishing this policy were the SS, Polizei and Wehrmacht. In an action codenamed "Operation Tannenberg" ("Unternehmen Tannenberg") in September and October 1939, an estimated 760 mass executions were carried out by Einsatzkommandos, resulting in the deaths of at least 20,000 of the most prominent Polish citizens
Also
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/Frank ... R%20CRIMES
"Poland can only be administered by utilizing the country through means of ruthless exploitation, deportation of all supplies, raw materials, machines, factory installations, etc., which are important for the German war economy, availability of all workers for work within Germany, reduction of the entire Polish economy to absolute minimum necessary for bare existence of the population, closing of all educational institutions, especially technical schools and colleges in order to prevent the growth of the new Polish intelligentsia. 'Poland shall be treated as a colony ; the Poles shall be the slaves of the Greater German World Empire. ' " (EC-344-16 & 17)
The removal of those ethnic groups permitted the excess Polish agricultural population to flow into the niches vacated by them, thereby solving most of the above problem.
Again this is false.Poland posseses a large sector of agriculture to this day.And in fact Poles didn't enter any roles of urban traders and artisants(which they already occupied) but industrial workers due to Soviet plans of industralisation.
The flow of surplus Polish agricultural population into the urban socio-economic niche formerly occupied by Jews
Never happened.
. On the other hand, the Polish people, which has drawn a net socio-economic benefit both from those exterminatory policies
Razed capital, ruined territory and need to rebuild 650 billion of $ damages.Not to mention losing 6milion citizens.And whole educated class murdered.45 years of occupation.I do not think this is in any way beneficial.
Last edited by Molobo on 25 Aug 2005 01:55, edited 1 time in total.

Karl
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Post by Karl » 25 Aug 2005 01:53

Though the resilience here is commendable, this is circular (therefor futile) and to be fair, I think Mr Mills latest work is not strong at all (and he can be quite skilled when he wants to be). I don't understand what he is getting at here or where he is trying to go with this.

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Post by David Thompson » 25 Aug 2005 01:55

Molobo -- At http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 356#754356 you wrote:
You seem to forget
and
It seems Mills has fallen to stereotype
and
This is a blatant lie and falsfication on Mills part
This is the last warning I will give you about posting personal remarks and insults. From now on, don't bother posting messages containing personal remarks or insults. That will save me the trouble of deleting them.

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memex
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Post by memex » 25 Aug 2005 07:56

michael mills wrote:The objective fact is that the Polish nation as a collective benefited from the removal of two ethnic groups from its territory.
(bold by me)

To make this "fact" objective, you should deliver us some credible numbers, sources, data - not only your allegations. Skilful word juggle is not sufficient proof for your claims.
michael mills wrote: The flow of surplus Polish agricultural population into the urban socio-economic niche formerly occupied by Jews was actually initiated by the German administration during the war itself, with its policy of training Poles as artisans and industrial workers so that they could take the place of Jewish artisans who had been eliminated.
(bold by me)

I see that you heven't heard about program of industry devoloping, begun by Polish government before WWII (mainly by vice-premier E.Kwiatkowski). Polish government started builds of many industry factories in COP (Centralny Okręg Przemysłowy/Central Industrial Zone), exactly in eastern provinces, where existed large agriculture unemployment (ca 500000 people wihout job). New factories were built in Rzeszów, Stalowa Wola, Dębica, Mielec, Niedomice, Rożnów (water power plant), etc. For example, in my town (Pionki near Radom) was built explosives factory "Pronit". For your interest I can tell you that first and most important director of those factory was mr Prot (I can't remeber his first name). He was the president Mościcki's crony. It wolud be not very strange for you, but Prot was a Jew. Jewish man - director of the explosives factory which was built by Poles? - it sounds incerdible, if we compare it to your exaggerated claims about Polish antisemitism :D
Regarding COP - many new-built factories were destroyed during WWII and Poles had to rebuild them after the war. It was the further "benefit" of German occupation :wink:
michael mills wrote: Regardless of the question of collective guilt, it is obvious that the German people has been burdened in the public mind with a moral responsibility for the exterminatory policies of its government of 60 years ago. On the other hand, the Polish people, which has drawn a net socio-economic benefit both from those exterminatory policies, and from the retribution for them, has borne no such moral burden.
(bold by me)

... but now - thanks to you mr Mills - AxisHistory community knows at last, who was the real culprit of Holocaust :wink:

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Post by Molobo » 25 Aug 2005 14:42

This is the last warning I will give you about posting personal remarks and insults
I just want to explain my reaction:
If a person lies, and it is proven by simple facts then is it a personal attack ? Stating that Germany wanted to raise educated class in Poland IS a lie proven by statements from Nuremberg Trial documentation and Hans Frank diary.Therefore saying that such statement(that is that Germany wanted to raise educated class in Poland) is a lie is nothing more then expressing truth about such statement.It is the same as if somebody would claim that Jews weren't killed in Auschwitz.So that is why called it a lie.

As to Mills incorrect portayal of Poles as nothing more then uneducated peasants, how should I name it, if not a stereotype.He has expressed it several times(in couple of topics).

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Post by michael mills » 25 Aug 2005 15:08

Molobo,

I wrote that the German authorities trained Poles as artisans and industrial workers to replace the Jews who were being progressively removed.

In many places Jewish artisans were retained for some time simply because they were the only only group of people in the area that could perform the work that the Germans required, eg manufacturing uniforms and other goods.

In those places, the stated aim of the German authorities, revealed in policy documents, was to train Poles, Belorussians and members of other ethnic groups to do the jobs that the Jews were doing, so that the latter could eventually be removed.

None of that adds up to the creation of a Polish educated class, in the normal meaning of that term. It was a case of turning Polish peasants into artisans and skilled industrial workers, neither of which economic classes are considered part of the intelligentsia.

And it was also a case of Poles, Belorussians etc. moving into a socio-economic niche that had hitherto been occupied almost exclusively by Jews, particularly in the less developed Eastern Poland.

I suggest you read the works of the German historian Götz Aly who has done an enormous amount of research on German plans for rationalising the economies of Poland and other East European countries by turning surplus peasants into industrial workers labouring in the German interest. The best book to start with is his "Vordenker der Vernichtung", which has been translated into English as "Architects of Annihilation".

I have quoted extensively from that book on other threads. You might be able to find them by searching under "Aly" or the title of the book.

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Post by Molobo » 25 Aug 2005 15:15

I wrote that the German authorities trained Poles as artisans and industrial workers
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/nca/nca- ... 04-03.html
[Page 646]

(6) Closing of schools. The program outlined by Frank on 3 October 1939 as the program he intended to administer as Governor General

"closing of all educational institutions, especially technical schools and colleges in order to prevent the growth of the new Polish intelligentsia." (EC-344-16 & 17)
. It was a case of turning Polish peasants into artisans and skilled industrial workers
http://www.holocaust-trc.org/poles.htm
As part of wider efforts to destroy Polish culture, the Germans closed or destroyed universities, schools, museums, libraries, and scientific laboratories. They demolished hundreds of monuments to national heroes. To prevent the birth of a new generation of educated Poles, German officials decreed that Polish children's schooling end after a few years of elementary education. "The sole goal of this schooling is to teach them simple arithmetic, nothing above the number 500; writing one's name; and the doctrine that it is divine law to obey the Germans. . . . I do not think that reading is desirable," Himmler wrote in his May 1940 memorandum.

In the annexed lands, the Nazis' goal was complete "Germanization" to assimilate the territories politically, culturally, socially, and economically into the German Reich. They applied this policy most rigorously in western incorporated territories—the so-called Wartheland. There, the Germans closed even elementary schools where Polish was the language of instruction
I suggest you read the works of the German historian Götz Aly who has done an enormous amount of research on German plans for rationalising the economies of Poland and other East European countries by turning surplus peasants into industrial workers labouring in the German interest. The best book to start with is his "Vordenker der Vernichtung", which has been translated into English as "Architects of Annihilation".
Either you are misinterpreting the book, or the author is simply wrong as widely know historic facts and statements from Nazi officials show.
As to industrial workers-a simple statement from Hans Frank shows the opinion to be untrue:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/nca/nca- ... 04-01.html
Most important, however, in Frank's opinion, was the fact that by destroying Polish industry, its subsequent reconstruction after the war would become more difficult, if not impossible, so that Poland would be reduced to its proper position as an agrarian country which would have to depend upon Germany for importation of industrial products." (EC-344-16 & 17)

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Post by David Thompson » 25 Aug 2005 15:16

Molobo -- You said:
I just want to explain my reaction:
If a person lies, and it is proven by simple facts then is it a personal attack ? Stating that Germany wanted to raise educated class in Poland IS a lie proven by statements from Nuremberg Trial documentation and Hans Frank diary.Therefore saying that such statement(that is that Germany wanted to raise educated class in Poland) is a lie is nothing more then expressing truth about such statement.It is the same as if somebody would claim that Jews weren't killed in Auschwitz.So that is why called it a lie.
A lie is a false statement, made with the deliberate intention to deceive. A mistake, inaccuracy, difference of opinion or alternative interpretation is not a lie. To call a person a liar is an offensive insult. We don't permit that sort of thing here. This forum exists for the readers, who come here for facts and informed discussion. To promote those goals, the forum and this section have rules. You are in violation of those rules. If you don't comply with the rules designed to promote civilized discourse, your posts will be deleted.

I have explained the situation to you in words as clear as the English language permits. Do not bring misfortune upon yourself.

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Post by memex » 26 Aug 2005 06:58

michael mills wrote:Molobo,
I suggest you read the works of the German historian Götz Aly who has done an enormous amount of research on German plans for rationalising the economies of Poland and other East European countries by turning surplus peasants into industrial workers labouring in the German interest.
Mr Mills, similar to your previous statemets regarding low credibility of Polish historians, I can say the same about Aly's historical knowledge. It is pretty possible that his works are doubtful and biased by nationality of the autor :wink: As you see, I used the same argument like you :wink:. We should read Aly's works with care. It is evident that German historian try to excuse Germans' politics in Eastern Europe during WWII. So, you can suggest Molobo the reading Aly's books, however you should do it with special care :wink:

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