When an independent panzer inspectorate was created in early 1943, which AFV types remained with the artillery?

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Sid Guttridge
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When an independent panzer inspectorate was created in early 1943, which AFV types remained with the artillery?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 13 Apr 2021 08:34

When the panzer inspectorate was created in early 1943, it took the tanks and the artillery kept the self-propelled artillery.

Where was the line drawn? Which types remained with the artillery?

Where did the self propelled anti-tank guns like the Marder or Hetzer fall?

The Stug.III remained with the artillery. Did the Wespe and Hummel?

What about the turretless, self propelled tank destroyer versions of the PzKpfw.IV, Panther, Elephant and Tiger II?

Is there a list anywhere of which AFV types remained with the artillery over 1943-45?

Were any types shared?

Many thanks,

Sid.

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Sheldrake
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Re: When an independent panzer inspectorate was created in early 1943, which AFV types remained with the artillery?

Post by Sheldrake » 14 Apr 2021 22:33

Sid Guttridge wrote:
13 Apr 2021 08:34
When the panzer inspectorate was created in early 1943, it took the tanks and the artillery kept the self-propelled artillery.

Where was the line drawn? Which types remained with the artillery?

Where did the self propelled anti-tank guns like the Marder or Hetzer fall?

The Stug.III remained with the artillery. Did the Wespe and Hummel?

What about the turretless, self propelled tank destroyer versions of the PzKpfw.IV, Panther, Elephant and Tiger II?

Is there a list anywhere of which AFV types remained with the artillery over 1943-45?

Were any types shared?

Many thanks,

Sid.

When the inspectorate of Panzer troops was formed it included the Schnelle Truppen - Armour, Recce, motoristed infantry Anti tank troops and cavalry. The Artillery arm kept the artillery - towed and self propelled.

There was a big overlap between tanks and SP guns and friction between the armour and artillery. Thar was also true in the British Army.

The pre WW2 German doctrine of concentrating tanks in panzer divisions left the German infantry unhappy that they had no allocation of armour. The artillery branch stepped in and provided sturm artillerie, which provided small packets of mobile armoured firepower for the infantry. The sturmartillerie arm expanded massively, diverting production of Mk III.

I doubt if there was a rational allocation of AFV chassis types. The Nazi war econpomy was divide and rule with multiple fiefdoms. The obvious answer to your question is that the SP field guns and sturmgeschutz were artillery pieces and the panzer jaegers Pzjaeger IV, JagdPanthers, Jagd tigers Marders were part of the panzer-truppen. Except.....

A significant amount of StuG production was diverted to the Panzer truppen in lieu of turreted tanks. This may have been undertaken once Speer took over armament production.

Some of the shnelltruppen were equipped with the output of Artillery Major Becker's factory in Paris which turned out SP anti tank guns, SP Howizers and sturmgeschtz. His biggest creation was the 21st Panzer Division and his boss segued across from being an artillery colonel to commanding this special scrap yard challenge Panzer Division.

Yoozername
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Re: When an independent panzer inspectorate was created in early 1943, which AFV types remained with the artillery?

Post by Yoozername » 14 Apr 2021 22:53

At the beginning of the war, the name "Schnell Troops" included the motorized infantry, the tank destroyers, the cavalry and reconnaissance units in addition to the tank troops. On April 1, 1943, the "Panzer Troops" branch was created by dissolving the "Rapid Troops" branch. The cavalry and cycling units that had previously belonged to the "Rapid Troops" were transferred to the "Infantry" branch of service on April 1, 1943. The weapon color remains "golden yellow". For the sake of clarity, however, these associations are also listed here.
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/

Sid Guttridge
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Re: When an independent panzer inspectorate was created in early 1943, which AFV types remained with the artillery?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 14 Apr 2021 23:17

Hi Yoozernmame,

As I understand it, all the inspectorates remained under the Ersatzheer until Guderian got independence from the Ersatzheer for the panzer inspectorate in 1943. It is how the AFV types were divided up at that stage that I am asking about.

Where was the line drawn? Which types remained with the artillery?

Where did the self propelled anti-tank guns like the Marder or Hetzer fall?

The Stug.III remained with the artillery. Did the Wespe and Hummel?

What about the turretless, self propelled tank destroyer versions of the PzKpfw.IV, Panther, Elephant and Tiger II?

Is there a list anywhere of which AFV types remained with the artillery over 1943-45?

Were any types shared?

Many thanks,

Sid.

Yoozername
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Posts: 2401
Joined: 25 Apr 2006 15:58
Location: Colorado

Re: When an independent panzer inspectorate was created in early 1943, which AFV types remained with the artillery?

Post by Yoozername » 15 Apr 2021 18:27

Technically, we should say Sturmartillerie.

The Sturmartillerie used the following:

StuG III with the K (L24) gun. I believe this was pretty much exclusive to them. GD Regiment did have a first use on the StuGs, and kept them as a permanent weapon company in their TO&E. But once the Sturmartillerie formations started (mostly in the East), they had exclusive use on this weapon. They used the armored halftracks designed as ammunition carriers.

StuG III 7,5 cm L43 were initially issued (again) to GD Division. They eventually combined their StuGs into one unit. Sturmartillerie units were issued L43/L48 as replacements only, or when setting up new units. This would be the state of affairs till 1943. I did post some info regarding 'budgets' as how many StuGs were scheduled for production, and how they would be divied up. Maybe search my name and StuG.

The Sturmartillerie also used the Panzer III based 15 cm. Of course, they also used the StuH. But they were not issued Wespe or Hummel. They were supposed to field the Ferdinand, but it was another name change and they became Heavy Panzer Jaegers. I don't know how many StuG IV were used in the Sturmartillerie, or if they were mainly issued to Panzer/PGD units. Search here in AHF for deliveries.

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=119567&p=1995286&h ... s#p1995286

https://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14053

Basically, the Sturmartillerie were limited in size as a battalion sized armor unit like an independent tank battalion might be. They were attached to divisions and coordinated with that unit as far as artillery and infantry . In many cases, the shot caller was the StuG leader. Especially as the infantry became poorer later in the war. The attempts to use light armor like the Panzer II, and dedicated attached troops did not get widespread use. They did not get dedicated FlaK either.

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