Marianas and Leyte Gulf; Mirror Images?

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sailorsam
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Marianas and Leyte Gulf; Mirror Images?

Post by sailorsam » 20 Jul 2021 21:16

Many of you will know that in the great battle of Leyte Gulf, the IJN succeeded in drawing away the USN's main battle force (under Admrial Halsey), leaving their transports relatively undefended. Halsey was severely criticized for what was considered to be carelessness.

Previous battle was the Marianas. In this one, the USN admiral, Spruance, withheld his carrier forces to protect the transports, fearing that the IJN attack was a feint.

so in the Marianas, Spruance held back fearing an IJN feint; in Leyte Gulf, the IJN really did feint, and Halsey totally bought it.

in the event; US airpower overwhelmed the inferior Japanese planes and pilots, but if the 1941 quality had been there (I know, 'what if'...), the US Navy could have taken some serious losses. (IIRC, first day of the battle, Japanese ships were not even fired upon by US planes or surface ships.)
@ Leyte Gulf, a handful of small ships ('Taffy 3') held off the Japanese force until the admiral concluded that there was too much US firepower and he withdrew. Critics suggest the IJN could have won a victory if they had pressed the attack.

One could say that the IJN out-strategized the USN in both battles, but did not have the resources to exploit.

thoughts?

got this idea from the book 'Eagle Against the Sun', good review of WWII in the Pacific.
https://www.amazon.com/Eagle-Against-Su ... oks&sr=1-1
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Re: Marianas and Leyte Gulf; Mirror Images?

Post by LAstry » 13 Feb 2022 23:02

Yes
Spruce was too cautious when he should have been more daring and willing to gamble -destroy the enemy fleet at all coasts....
Halsey was too reckless when he should have been more cautious

Spruce was a big gun battleship man
Halsey was a airman Admiral---Halsey and Marc Mitcher another air Admiral made a great team

Another Cautious Admiral was Frank Fletcher......

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Re: Marianas and Leyte Gulf; Mirror Images?

Post by OpanaPointer » 13 Feb 2022 23:46

Many of you will know that in the great battle of Leyte Gulf, the IJN succeeded in drawing away the USN's main battle force (under Admrial Halsey), leaving their transports relatively undefended.
Didn't help the Japanese that much. I'm smoothing JM 84 right now. And can't a case be made that Halsey was following orders? We didn't know that carrier force was impotent until we killed it.
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Re: Marianas and Leyte Gulf; Mirror Images?

Post by daveshoup2MD » 14 Feb 2022 02:12

sailorsam wrote:
20 Jul 2021 21:16
Many of you will know that in the great battle of Leyte Gulf, the IJN succeeded in drawing away the USN's main battle force (under Admrial Halsey), leaving their transports relatively undefended. Halsey was severely criticized for what was considered to be carelessness.

Previous battle was the Marianas. In this one, the USN admiral, Spruance, withheld his carrier forces to protect the transports, fearing that the IJN attack was a feint.

so in the Marianas, Spruance held back fearing an IJN feint; in Leyte Gulf, the IJN really did feint, and Halsey totally bought it.

in the event; US airpower overwhelmed the inferior Japanese planes and pilots, but if the 1941 quality had been there (I know, 'what if'...), the US Navy could have taken some serious losses. (IIRC, first day of the battle, Japanese ships were not even fired upon by US planes or surface ships.)
@ Leyte Gulf, a handful of small ships ('Taffy 3') held off the Japanese force until the admiral concluded that there was too much US firepower and he withdrew. Critics suggest the IJN could have won a victory if they had pressed the attack.

One could say that the IJN out-strategized the USN in both battles, but did not have the resources to exploit.

thoughts?

got this idea from the book 'Eagle Against the Sun', good review of WWII in the Pacific.
https://www.amazon.com/Eagle-Against-Su ... oks&sr=1-1
No, actually. The Americans took their objectives, successfully executing their dual strategies of driving west across the Central Pacific to a) seize the Marianas as bases for the strategic bombardment force, and b) liberate the Philippines to close off the western Pacific SLOCs of Japan from bases where - unlike Formosa/Taiwan or anywhere else - there was an Allied population that could self-liberate to a large degree.

The Japanese, of course, were defeated in their larger object of trying to defend both sets of positions and in creating the circumstances of a "decisive battle" that could potentially slow the US offensive.

At the operational/tactical level, Spruance kept his eye on the ball and ensured the success of the Marianas operations; Halsey - arguably - both c) opened the door to the IJN to score a significant victory (the escort carrier force defeated it, but that was not Halsey's doing) and d) missed a chance to utterly destroy the IJN, which was possible - because of the overwhelming strength of the USN in the theater - Halsey actually could have divided his forces and still ensured the necessary margins over both the IJN Northern and Central forces.

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Re: Marianas and Leyte Gulf; Mirror Images?

Post by Delta Tank » 06 Apr 2022 17:31

OpanaPointer wrote:
13 Feb 2022 23:46
Many of you will know that in the great battle of Leyte Gulf, the IJN succeeded in drawing away the USN's main battle force (under Admrial Halsey), leaving their transports relatively undefended.
Didn't help the Japanese that much. I'm smoothing JM 84 right now. And can't a case be made that Halsey was following orders? We didn't know that carrier force was impotent until we killed it.
Didn’t the US Navy know, or should of known, that the Imperial Japanese Navy was out of pilots? “The Marianas Turkey Shoot” should of been a clue.

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Re: Marianas and Leyte Gulf; Mirror Images?

Post by OpanaPointer » 06 Apr 2022 18:14

Remember how much training the kikusui pilots got.
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Re: Marianas and Leyte Gulf; Mirror Images?

Post by Delta Tank » 06 Apr 2022 21:09

OpanaPointer wrote:
06 Apr 2022 18:14
Remember how much training the kikusui pilots got.
??? Okay, remind me!! This adds nothing to the thread!

Remember Pearl Harbor!

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Re: Marianas and Leyte Gulf; Mirror Images?

Post by OpanaPointer » 07 Apr 2022 00:04

Delta Tank wrote:
06 Apr 2022 21:09
OpanaPointer wrote:
06 Apr 2022 18:14
Remember how much training the kikusui pilots got.
??? Okay, remind me!! This adds nothing to the thread!

Remember Pearl Harbor!

Mike
The Special Attack Farces (sic) were given enough training to take off and follow a lead plane. You don't need Ph.D. in Aerodynamics to kill yourself against the side of a battleship.

Remember Pearl Bailey!
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Re: Marianas and Leyte Gulf; Mirror Images?

Post by Kingfish » 07 Apr 2022 00:52

OpanaPointer wrote:
13 Feb 2022 23:46
And can't a case be made that Halsey was following orders? We didn't know that carrier force was impotent until we killed it.
I suppose the question then is was his decision to head north and leave SB strait undefended the best course of action in fulfilling those orders.

One could make an equally compelling, and possibly more prudent, case for either staying in place or at least heading only a short distance north.
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Re: Marianas and Leyte Gulf; Mirror Images?

Post by Delta Tank » 07 Apr 2022 01:46

OpanaPointer wrote:
07 Apr 2022 00:04
Delta Tank wrote:
06 Apr 2022 21:09
OpanaPointer wrote:
06 Apr 2022 18:14
Remember how much training the kikusui pilots got.
??? Okay, remind me!! This adds nothing to the thread!

Remember Pearl Harbor!

Mike
The Special Attack Farces (sic) were given enough training to take off and follow a lead plane. You don't need Ph.D. in Aerodynamics to kill yourself against the side of a battleship.

Remember Pearl Bailey!
Yup, so what?? When did the Japanese start organized suicide attacks?? Did that influence Halsey’s decision to go after IJN carriers and leave the SB strait un-defended?

Mike

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Re: Marianas and Leyte Gulf; Mirror Images?

Post by Delta Tank » 07 Apr 2022 01:53

Kingfish wrote:
07 Apr 2022 00:52
OpanaPointer wrote:
13 Feb 2022 23:46
And can't a case be made that Halsey was following orders? We didn't know that carrier force was impotent until we killed it.
I suppose the question then is was his decision to head north and leave SB strait undefended the best course of action in fulfilling those orders.

One could make an equally compelling, and possibly more prudent, case for either staying in place or at least heading only a short distance north.
As we all know, if Halsey would of left one destroyer at SB Strait, dividing his fleet, he may of lost his engagement with the Japanese aircraft carriers up north!! We could of lost the war!! Or something worse!!😳

Halsey’s actions were indefensible!! In fact he was the only one after the battle that tried to defend his actions!!

Mike

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Re: Marianas and Leyte Gulf; Mirror Images?

Post by OpanaPointer » 07 Apr 2022 10:46

Have fun, guys.
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Re: Marianas and Leyte Gulf; Mirror Images?

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 07 Apr 2022 11:42

Delta Tank wrote:
06 Apr 2022 17:31
...
Didn’t the US Navy know, or should of known, that the Imperial Japanese Navy was out of pilots? “The Marianas Turkey Shoot” should of been a clue.

Mike
My take is no. The USN & Army both overestimated the effective strength of the Japanese air arm. The exception may have been MacArthurs intel section who seems to have been underestimating.

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Re: Marianas and Leyte Gulf; Mirror Images?

Post by Delta Tank » 07 Apr 2022 21:53

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
07 Apr 2022 11:42
Delta Tank wrote:
06 Apr 2022 17:31
...
Didn’t the US Navy know, or should of known, that the Imperial Japanese Navy was out of pilots? “The Marianas Turkey Shoot” should of been a clue.

Mike
My take is no. The USN & Army both overestimated the effective strength of the Japanese air arm. The exception may have been MacArthurs intel section who seems to have been underestimating.
Carl,
I find that hard to believe but, I don’t have any facts to refute your assertion!

Mike

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Re: Marianas and Leyte Gulf; Mirror Images?

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 08 Apr 2022 02:32

Its my take after reading a half dozen histories of the pacific war. One example would be the US Navies interpretation of Admiral Kogas 'Plan Z'. Koga was Adm Yamotos successor & had the bad luck to be killed in a aircraft crash on the Philippines coast March 1944. A copy of his plan or playbook for defending the Central and South Pacific, including the Marianas was captured by PI resistance fighters and ended up in Nimitzs hands fairly quickly. The plan as read by the US intel analysts and Navy leaders looked like it would deploy a stronger force than the Japanese actually had available. I'm unsure if that was from unrealistic Japanese hopes, or imperfect analysis on the US side.

A similar plan for defending the Gilbert islands in autumn 1943 is described in Alexanders 'Uimost Savagery' which describes Op GALVANIC. Many of the fleet and air elements written into the plan were actually destroyed or nuetralized & in the S Pacific battles earlier in 1943, but were not modified. Had the US leaders seen the plan previous to invading Makin and Betio islands they'd have been looking for a early lighting strike by a cruiser force and the Japanese main fleet lurking over the horizon ready to pounce, while a number of bomber wings attacked from other bases in the Gilberts. As it was the only element in the plan that actually was able to deploy was the submarine flotilla, which sank the Liscombe Bay. That weak response was overmatched by the USN deploying a carrier force including some of the new Essex class, battleships, and a large cruiser force to cover the landings on the Tarawa Atoll.


Probably one of the Japanese actions misleading the USN late 1944 was the use of so many recently trained air groups vs Halseys raid into the Yellow Sea. the Japanese 6th Air Fleet based on Formosa recorded over 500 aircraft lost in their attempt to sink the US 3rd Fleets carriers. The ability of the 6th air fleet to generate nearly 1000 sorties in a couple days impressed the USN leaders, even if the 3d Fleets aircraft losses were less than 100. The assumption seemed to be that if the Japanese could launch that swarm of aircraft from Formosa their fleet carriers must be fully stocked as well.

Yet another factor was judging the enemy by ones own standards. There seems to have been the conclusion that since the USN could run a candidate pilot though a complete training program including near 300 flight hours, in six months or less so could the Japanese. That the Japanese replacement polite were so badly trained was not understood. So when USN analysts identified X number of Japanese carriers still operational they conclude that meant a similar number of combat capable air wings aboard.

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