Luftwaffe aces

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Luftwaffe air units and general discussions on the Luftwaffe.
erkonig
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Luftwaffe aces

Post by erkonig » 05 Jul 2003 01:49

I have a question, When the Luftwaffe was facing the RAF in the Battle of Britain, does anyone know if any of the Luftwaffe's top aces like Hartmann and Galland and such were in any of these battles?? Thanks alot

Mark Costa
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Post by Mark Costa » 05 Jul 2003 03:56

Galland scored quite a few of his victories during the Battle of Britain. Hartmann on the other hand was still in school in 1940. He didn't start to score until late 1942 and 1943.

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AHLF
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Post by AHLF » 05 Jul 2003 12:42

The best ace during the BoB was someone who is missing in action (at the time, he was the first among luftwaffe experten). Unfortunatelly, I can't recall his name, anyone?

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Stauffenberg II
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Post by Stauffenberg II » 05 Jul 2003 12:49

Adlertag

1. Oblt. Helmut Wick 42 I./JG 2
2. Maj. Adolf Galland 35 III./JG 26, Stab JG 26
3. Hptm. Walter Oesau 34 III./JG 51
4. Maj. Werner Mölders 28 Stab JG 51
5. Oblt. Hermann Joppien 26 I./JG 51
6. Oblt. Herbert Ihlefeld 24 I./LG 2
7. Hptm. Gerhard Schöpfel 23 III./JG 26
8. Hptm. Hans-Karl Mayer 22 I./JG 53

Regards
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gabriel pagliarani
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Post by gabriel pagliarani » 05 Jul 2003 16:13

Werner Mölders was the best among them not only for claims but for effective leadership. As Galland he was an ace just till Spain War.

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Benoit Douville
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Post by Benoit Douville » 05 Jul 2003 17:06

Erkonig,

The Luftwaffe Aces of the Battle of Britain did include Major Adolf Galland of the Luftwaffe. He was already an Ace before the Battle of Britain began. He had 37 kills. He was also one of the few Luftwaffe Aces to survive the war. To had to the great list of our fellow member Stauffenberg II Other Luftwaffe Ace of the Battle of Britain include also Gustav Sprick.

-Regards
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Last edited by Benoit Douville on 05 Jul 2003 23:31, edited 1 time in total.

erkonig
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Marseille, Rudel, and Rall

Post by erkonig » 05 Jul 2003 18:58

Did any of these guys fight in the BoB? I think Marseille was known for his fighting in Afrika or something maybe Im confused, I think Rudel was known for flying the Stuka, but what about Rall?

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WaffenSS27
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Post by WaffenSS27 » 05 Jul 2003 22:27

Hartmann mainly fought on the Eastern Front shooting down Il-2s and Yaks. He exact score escapes me for the moment, but I think it was over 300 or 350. He also shot down I think 1 or 2 P-51s in late 44'.

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Post by Larso » 06 Jul 2003 01:49

Hartmann scored 352 of which 7 were US flown mustangs, all the rest were Soviet aircraft. Rall finished with 275. Most were Soviet flown. He was flying on the Western front from 1944. He was shot down himself 8 times, his injuries included a broken back and a thumb shot of by a P-47. He finished the war flying Me 262

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tigre
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Re: Luftwaffe aces

Post by tigre » 28 May 2014 02:30

Hello to all :D; a little complement here..................

Spanish Civil War.

The top "Experten" of the conflict were:

Hauptmann Werner Mölders with 14 victories. (killed in a plane crash on November 22, 1941)
Hauptmann Wolfgang Schellmann with 12 victories. (missing in action on June 22, 1941)
Hauptmann Harro Harder with 11 victories. (missing in action on August 12, 1940 on the English Channel).
Leutnant Peter Boddem with 10 victories. (killed in a flying accident on March 20, 1939).

The first shooting down credited to a Bf-109, to be followed by many more throughout its brilliant career, was done by Oberleutnant Günther Franzl Lützow on April 6, 1937.

Sources: Luftwaffe Eagles. Fly Past Special. February 1997.
Los Ases de la Blitzkrieg (Me Bf 109 D/E)

Cheers. Raúl M 8-)
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tigre
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Re: Luftwaffe aces

Post by tigre » 31 May 2014 21:36

Hello to all :D; something more...................

The Polish Campaign - September 1939.

Although the Polish Air Force considered as its greatest opponent the heavy twin engine Bf 110, 67 Bf 109s were shot down or destroyed in the course of operations. In spite of many of the later "Experten" of the Bf 109 got their first victories​​ in this campaign, surprisingly, one of those who managed to achieve multiple hits against the slippery Poles, was Hauptmann Johannes Gentzen. He was the Kommandeur of the JGr 102, a destroyer unit (Zerstörer), but equipped with the outdated Bf-109 D at that time. In Poland the JGr 102 managed to destroy 29 aircraft in the air and 36 on the ground. Hauptmann Gentzen managed to get 7 victories, Uffz. Karl Schuch 4, Leutnant Hartwig-Bonies Domeier 3 as well as Uffz. Hans Katzmann.

At the time of his dead he had 18 victories.

Sources: Luftwaffe Eagles. Fly Past Special. February 1997.
Los Ases de la Blitzkrieg (Me Bf 109 D/E)

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
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durb
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Re: Luftwaffe aces

Post by durb » 01 Jun 2014 18:48

Some comments of the above numbers of Luftwaffe fighter losses during the Invasion on Poland 1939.

Jerzy B. Cynk: Polish fighter force in the September Campaing. According to Cynk 97 "kills" by the Polish fighters can be verified from the German sources. Regarding the losses of German fighters Cynk mentions that Luftwaffe lost 13 Bf 109 and 8 Bf 110 to Polish fighters. The primary targets of Polish PZL fighters were of course bombers (32 Heinkel 111, 18 Do 17, 9 Stukas). The rest of victims were Luftwaffe´s reconaissence and liason planes.

Marius, Emmerling: Lufwaffe nad Polska 1939. According to him Lufwaffe lost 50 - 60 aircraft to Polish fighters - statement based on his research of Luftwaffe records. I do not know well his figures by type losses, so I do not know how many Messerschmitts he credits to Polish fighters.

There has been quite a controversy about the Luftwaffe loss numbers in Poland 1939. Often cited figure of total Luftwaffe losses is 285, but this figure includes also victims of AA fire and written offs due to accidents. Of the Polish figure the loss of 333 planes is often mentioned, but like German figure it includes all the losses, not only air combat losses. More about this at: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7&t=126468

When it comes to statement, that Bf 109 D employed in Poland was outdated, I would say that it was not at all outdated against PZL P 11 and PZL P 7. I remember to have read that even Bf 109 C´s saw action in Poland, and also they were good enough against PZL fighters. Despite this the most scoring German units were ZG´s using Bf 110 - IIRC, this is because ZG units made most of the combat for the air superiority and were the main escort for German bombers.

Some later German nightfighter aces made first of their claims in Poland flying Bf 110 (IIRC). At least Helmut Lent is well known.

Also one comment about Adolf Galland in Spanish Civil War. He was not an ace in Spain and made no claims there, as he flew ground attack missions with He 51. Galland participated also in the Poland Campaign as a ground attack pilot flying Henschel 123.

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tigre
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Re: Luftwaffe aces

Post by tigre » 22 Jun 2014 14:55

Hello to all :D; something more...................

The Sitzkrieg - Winter 1939/1940.

Forty-eight hours after the invasion of Poland the III. Reich became involved in a war against England and France. The winter months of 1939-1940 saw relatively little activity in the ground zones of the Western Front, but this was not like that in the air. The first clashes took place on September 4, 1939 on the north German coast area, when aircrafts of the II. / JG 77 (Major Schumacher) intercepted a formation of wellingtons of the Bomber Command outside Brunsbuttel waters. The planes had as its objectives the warships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. The skirmishes occurred during all the fall till the epic battle of the "German Bight" on December 18, 1939 in which there were shot down 12 out of the 22 wellingtons who attacked Wilhelmshaven.

The most successful pilot in these months of the War was the Kommandeur of the III. / JG 53 Hauptmann Mölders Werner, who between September 20, 1939 (still Staffelkapitän of the 1./JG 53) and April 23, 1940 achieved 9 victories, which were added to the 14 victories achieved in Spain.

Sources: Osprey - Aviation Elite Units 025 - Jagdgeschwader 53 'Pik As'
Luftwaffe Eagles. Fly Past Special. February 1997.
Los Ases de la Blitzkrieg (Me Bf 109 D/E)

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
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Dark Star
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Re: Luftwaffe aces [Erich Hartmann]

Post by Dark Star » 22 Jun 2014 21:55

Larso wrote:Hartmann scored 352 of which 7 were US flown mustangs, all the rest were Soviet aircraft. Rall finished with 275. Most were Soviet flown. He was flying on the Western front from 1944. He was shot down himself 8 times, his injuries included a broken back and a thumb shot of by a P-47. He finished the war flying Me 262'
The 352 score of Hartmann is under serious doubt, including the 7 Mustangs. A search over on the Twelve O' Clock High Forum includes some excellent debate on the subject.

Rall never flew the Me 262.

RobertLloyd
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Re: Luftwaffe aces

Post by RobertLloyd » 02 Jul 2014 13:25

There is a new 'audio' movie now out (as of July 1, 2014) on the life of "Adolf Galland" (As Though Angels Are Pushing Me Through The Air) at www.heroesinhistorymovies.com

Please give your thoughts on this movie.

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