After 100 years the old Ottman/New Turkish empire Strikes back

Discussions on the final era of the Ottoman Empire, from the Young Turk Revolution of 1908 until the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923.
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wm
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Re: After 100 years the old Ottman/New Turkish empire Strikes back

Post by wm » 27 Dec 2021 22:42

stevebecker wrote:
24 Dec 2021 23:58
WM you quote a number of countries, but not all didn't want Demos (Korea) my father fought there in the 50's.
Post-war South Korea was an authoritarian country but still, the US saved it from genocidal communism. The US deserves a forest of gratitude monuments for that.

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Re: After 100 years the old Ottman/New Turkish empire Strikes back

Post by stevebecker » 29 Dec 2021 21:59

Mate,

Concidering the other side, then the south is a haven.
Many countries have a authoritarian govts and live with it. Not all are bad.
Many of cause are not
You like me could name many over the last Century, and more over the two thousand years since Christ.
weather it was commies, islam, Christians, fascistism and others, all have good as well as bad.
No one is perfect, because man sicks his dirty fingers into the pot to make the good bad.
Say safe
S.B

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Re: After 100 years the old Ottman/New Turkish empire Strikes back

Post by Sid Guttridge » 31 Dec 2021 11:06

Hi stevebecker,

I would suggest that authoritarian ("favouring or enforcing strict obedience to authority at the expense of personal freedom") governments are by definition bad. They lack any corrective internal mechanism.

It doesn't mean that having a regime that gets the trains to run on time is not a good thing, it just means that there is a considerable cost to pay in liberty.

Cheers,

Sid

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Re: After 100 years the old Ottman/New Turkish empire Strikes back

Post by Linkagain » 31 Dec 2021 15:08

Turkey has itself two New allies Pakistan and Iran

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul% ... ganization.

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Re: After 100 years the old Ottman/New Turkish empire Strikes back

Post by Linkagain » 31 Dec 2021 19:50

Just think of it you can go from Europe Via Orient express to Pakistan {OR NOT MAYBE!!!!} :milwink: :milwink:

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Re: After 100 years the old Ottman/New Turkish empire Strikes back

Post by stevebecker » 31 Dec 2021 23:40

Sid,

I would not disagree.
Since we are talking about Turkey, we now have that same problem.
Islam has a habit of being an authoritarian govt, where so called strong men control them.
Yet they (moslims) live under these so called stable Govts
Some say Ataturk changed that by bring in a more liberal Govt, to break away from where religion takes over Govts
Of cause now days Turkey has again slipped into the dark ages with its present leader.
The west also had these problems, but broke with religion and Govts, three hundred years ago, no not the Yanks, but the French. whom the Yanks followed.
But the Yanks do slip back into the religion at times, thanks to the crazies.
Of cause then there Putin, what can you say about the man who wins all the time, fixed or what
Is Russia better under this man or a more liberal Govt?
What ever you say about the Yanks or the West, at lest you can change there Govt or leaders, every three years, and take your chances.
S.B

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Re: After 100 years the old Ottman/New Turkish empire Strikes back

Post by wm » 01 Jan 2022 23:08

Christianity was authoritarian from day one till modern times, not much different than the Muslims.
Or the world was inherently authoritarian and both religions had to adapt to it.

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Re: After 100 years the old Ottman/New Turkish empire Strikes back

Post by stevebecker » 03 Jan 2022 03:06

Mate,

Agreed, but most western Govts have done away with where religion gets involved with Govts
It is not on the books when elections come around, while many islamic countries still have the old hold over from it.
That it selve is not always a bad thing, but where sharir law comes into it, you have problems.
I was in a Muslim country some years ago and visited a Mosque, and in the car park, the Local people told me that islamic law was being done to a number of so called criminals, the cutting off of hands and such. I didn't see anything because I was to far back and didn't what to watch anyway.
I can only take them for there word, it was that, but it reminded me of the Roman Coloseums with all the people looking on.
There's good and bad in both
S.B

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Re: After 100 years the old Ottman/New Turkish empire Strikes back

Post by Tanzania » 04 Jan 2022 09:37

stevebecker wrote:
03 Jan 2022 03:06
Mate,
Agreed, but most western Govts have done away with where religion gets involved with Govts
It is not on the books when elections come around, while many islamic countries still have the old hold over from it.
That it selve is not always a bad thing, but where sharir law comes into it, you have problems.
I was in a Muslim country some years ago and visited a Mosque, and in the car park, the Local people told me that islamic law was being done to a number of so called criminals, the cutting off of hands and such. I didn't see anything because I was to far back and didn't what to watch anyway.
I can only take them for there word, it was that, but it reminded me of the Roman Coloseums with all the people looking on.
There's good and bad in both
S.B
Hello Steve,

I used to think just like you After 10 years in the Middle East, including 4 years in Jeddah and Makka / KSA, I think today differently, based on this experience.

Western countries, the so-called 'Free World', is firmly convinced by its culture, democracy and religion that it can and must appear as 'Saviour' in the world. (We all know that with this moral and ethical legitimation, of course, only economic and power-political interests are compensated.)

For me, it is at least empirical values and not prejudices if I have come to the conviction today that the citizens of western countries lack of ability to reflect (tunnel view), that in other continents, other cultures and other religions there is absolutely no need for this `beautiful healing world´. Our way of life and democracy simply cannot be exported to all parts of the world; - regardless of the fact that the respective population does not want that either.

In our countries we are informed in an endless loop by government-related 'system media' what is good for us and what is bad: Bashar al-Assad (Syria) is bad, Ebrahim Raisi (Iran) is bad, Muammar al-Gaddafi (Libya) was bad, oh yes Recep Tayyip Erdoğan (Turkey) is also bad, but Salman ibn Abd al -Aziz (Kingdom of Saudi Arabia) is not evil; - I wonder why.

With the same absurdity and disgust as the 'West' has judged the activities of IS (Daesh), Western activities in the Middle East are judged in many cases.

As already mentioned, these are just my experiences, and not negative prejudices.

Regards Holger
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984

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Re: After 100 years the old Ottman/New Turkish empire Strikes back

Post by wm » 04 Jan 2022 17:16

It's unreasonable to expect democracy from people advancing from milking camels for dinner to the Burj Khalifa in a few decades.
And most of them don't even have a Burj Khalifa yet.
It didn't happen especially fast in Europe either.
The Arab and Asian autocracies look stable and sleek (mostly thanks to Western PR firms) but will see how far that will go. Fascism/communism looked stable and sleek too.

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Re: After 100 years the old Ottman/New Turkish empire Strikes back

Post by stevebecker » 04 Jan 2022 21:44

Mates,
I surpose my main concern here, is not the people, but where they allow religion to interfer with there Govts and lifes.
I lost my religion many years ago in Bosnia, is where they slaughtered each other because of it, or what they called it.
I saw it more as a Nationalistic war then religion, but others (media) liked to build up the religion side, then Nationalistic.
Not only islam but Christian Govts
It reminds me of the old saying used to justify these slaughters by islam and Christians
"God Wills it"
What makes us think God would will it.
What would make you think God, would will you to walk into a school yard to kill
Any thing that does is not something I want anything to do with.
S.B

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Re: After 100 years the old Ottman/New Turkish empire Strikes back

Post by wm » 04 Jan 2022 22:21

I don't know. Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, Mao China were atheistic empires and they were slaughtering by millions.
And Nazi Germany, the only one superficially religious, actually survived about seven years without slaughtering.

Yugoslavia was a victim of multiculturalism forced on them by the communists and their Western helpers. It wasn't about religion but about forcing people to live together although they didn't want that.

Religion and nationalism are two reliable and powerful bonding forces, without them, no country will survive in an adversary world.
It will be literally "those who hammer their swords into plows will plow for those who do not."

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Re: After 100 years the old Ottman/New Turkish empire Strikes back

Post by Linkagain » 05 Jan 2022 19:37

Message number 24 is quite right...the whole world cannot be made into an image of western Democrazy {i.E the USA for one]

Sadly this lesson had not been learned....for example....China; Vietnam; Iran; Iraq; Lebannon...in fac the last tow countires are perfect examples of Chaos....No amount of either Western Philiposply; technology or Politcal Know how can save them

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Re: After 100 years the old Ottman/New Turkish empire Strikes back

Post by wm » 06 Jan 2022 23:25

Lebanon was a failed country from day one. Only Arab "leisure" money allowed it to thrive for a moment.
It's not an example of failed democracy but failed forced multiculturalism.

In other countries, powerful social classes (Chinese nomenclature, ruling families in the UAE) exist - vastly interested in maintaining the status quo.
The people there didn't reject democracy, nobody actually asked them - their rulers did.

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Re: After 100 years the old Ottman/New Turkish empire Strikes back

Post by stevebecker » 09 Jan 2022 23:38

Mate,
I was in the Lebanon in 1979 attached to the Fijians, when the Israilis crossed the border to hit Hisbula
We spent a week or so, trapped in the base with a Israili Tank parked at the enterence, so we couldn't get out.
I would tend to agree with you about the lebanon was such a loverly place, but all sides now use it as a war zone, yes the Jews and Syria stuck there dirty fingers into the pot.
I had a mate, who was a former Marine, who's recriut class mates were killed in the Lebanon during that bombing in the 80's, he survied
The Lebanon will only get out of the crap until all sides leave it alone.
S.B

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