Killer Submarine

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Dan W.
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Killer Submarine

Post by Dan W. » 12 May 2002 20:46

For those of you who receive The History Channel, on Tuesday, May 14th there is a segment on two often overlooked warcrimes of WWII. The description of the show is:

Killer Submarine

Recounts the deadly patrol of a Soviet S-13 submarine through the Baltic Sea. On January 30, 1945, it sank a German refugee ship filled with women and children. Of the 10,000 passengers, only 700 survived. A week later, the sub sank a German hospital ship--4,000 perished. Survivors of the sub and sunken ships offer firsthand accounts


I think it airs at 10:00 PM Central time U.S.
Last edited by Dan W. on 12 May 2002 20:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Benoit Douville
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Post by Benoit Douville » 13 May 2002 00:23

Another Soviet crime to be discovered...

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Dan W.
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Post by Dan W. » 13 May 2002 00:35

For those unfamiliar with these crimes, here is a link to the liner
"Wilhelm Gustloff", which was designed for around 1800 people and had over 10,000
fleeing the Russian hordes of rapists and sadists....



http://feldgrau.com/wilhelmgustloff.html

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 13 May 2002 00:49

Benoit Douville wrote:Another Soviet crime to be discovered...
http://members.tripod.com/Tenika/tragedy.htm

Marinesko was not aware of what kind of ship he was shooting at. later he never wear his decoration for this sinking and prefered not talk about it.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 13 May 2002 00:50

Dan Weakley wrote:For those unfamiliar with these crimes, here is a link to the liner
"Wilhelm Gustloff", which was designed for around 1800 people and had over 10,000
fleeing the Russian hordes of rapists and sadists....



http://feldgrau.com/wilhelmgustloff.html
why might wonder why suddnely Russian rapist and sadist decided to inavade Germany
According to the ships own records, the list of passengers on the 30th included 918 Naval officers and men, 173 crew, 373 members of the Woman's Naval Auxiliary units, 162 wounded, and 4,424 refugees, for an official total of 6,050 people. This is according to the official list though, and doesn't take into account the many hundreds of other people that one way or another, were able to make their way onto the seemingly safe decks of the Gustloff. In fact, new research has now shown that the total number of people on the Gustloff at the time it was sunk was actually 10,582! Newly published research by Heinz Schon has set the number of people on the Gustloff as follows: 8,956 refugees, 918 officers NCOs and men of the 2.Unterseeboot-Lehrdivision, 373 female naval auxiliary helpers, 173 naval armed forces auxiliaries, and 162 heavily wounded soldiers, for a total of 10,582 people on board on January 30th.


hmm so basicaly it was mix of civillians and miliatry...

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Re: Killer Submarine

Post by Panzermahn » 02 Apr 2010 13:00

Perhaps Soviet Union was the only country in the world to decorate soldiers with a bravery award who managed to sink hospital ships, killing numerous women and children many years after the war even when the truth was known regarding the casualties of Wilhelm Gustloff

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Marinesko

Leo Angel
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Re: Killer Submarine

Post by Leo Angel » 02 Apr 2010 14:20

Panzermahn wrote:Perhaps Soviet Union was the only country in the world to decorate soldiers with a bravery award who managed to sink hospital ships, killing numerous women and children many years after the war even when the truth was known regarding the casualties of Wilhelm Gustloff

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Marinesko
nope, you are wrong. Nazi Germany decorated SS personnel who was directly responsible for thousands of deaths. Few examples: Rudolf Hoess, Erich Muhsfeldt, Maria Mandel, Otto Moll, Josef Kramer, Therese Brandl etc. etc.

greetings
Leo

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Re: Killer Submarine

Post by Okyzm » 02 Apr 2010 14:30

Since this was a military training ship, it was a legitimate target of attack.
As such there is no war crime involved and the thread should be either moved or deleted.

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Re: Killer Submarine

Post by redcoat » 02 Apr 2010 14:42

Dan W. wrote:For those of you who receive The History Channel, on Tuesday, May 14th there is a segment on two often overlooked warcrimes of WWII. The description of the show is:

Killer Submarine

Recounts the deadly patrol of a Soviet S-13 submarine through the Baltic Sea. On January 30, 1945, it sank a German refugee ship filled with women and children. Of the 10,000 passengers, only 700 survived. A week later, the sub sank a German hospital ship--4,000 perished. Survivors of the sub and sunken ships offer firsthand accounts


I think it airs at 10:00 PM Central time U.S.
Here we go again :roll:

The sinking of the Wilhelm Gusloff was no war crime.

She was armed(light AA), and carried nearly 1,000 members of the U-boat arm of the German Navy as well as the refugees.

This made her a legitimate target.

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Re: Killer Submarine

Post by David Thompson » 02 Apr 2010 14:48

Okyzm -- You wrote:
Since this was a military training ship, it was a legitimate target of attack.
As such there is no war crime involved and the thread should be either moved or deleted.
We discuss claims of war crimes here, as well as proven charges. These discussions help to inform the readers as to what is a war crime and what is not, and why. We don't move or delete such threads for two reasons: (1) our system keeps all the threads in one place for easy reference; and (2) moving or deleting such threads results in redundant threads on the same topic.

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Re: Killer Submarine

Post by Panzermahn » 02 Apr 2010 15:12

Leo Angel wrote:
Panzermahn wrote:Perhaps Soviet Union was the only country in the world to decorate soldiers with a bravery award who managed to sink hospital ships, killing numerous women and children many years after the war even when the truth was known regarding the casualties of Wilhelm Gustloff

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Marinesko
nope, you are wrong. Nazi Germany decorated SS personnel who was directly responsible for thousands of deaths. Few examples: Rudolf Hoess, Erich Muhsfeldt, Maria Mandel, Otto Moll, Josef Kramer, Therese Brandl etc. etc.

greetings
Leo
I am not sure if Hoess, Muhsfeldt, Mandel, Moll, Kramer, Brandl sinks any hospital ships though :roll:

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Re: Killer Submarine

Post by David Thompson » 02 Apr 2010 15:24

Let's get back on topic.

Okyzm
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Re: Killer Submarine

Post by Okyzm » 02 Apr 2010 15:27

We discuss claims of war crimes here, as well as proven charges. These discussions help to inform the readers as to what is a war crime and what is not, and why. We don't move or delete such threads for two reasons: (1) our system keeps all the threads in one place for easy reference; and (2) moving or deleting such threads results in redundant threads on the same topic.
Thank you for your explanation David.
I am not sure if Hoess, Muhsfeldt, Mandel, Moll, Kramer, Brandl sinks any hospital ships though
Neither did Alexander Marinesko, as Gustloff was a military training ship (already explained above).

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Re: Killer Submarine

Post by zmija » 02 Apr 2010 17:33

Okyzm wrote:...Gustloff was a military training ship...
Are you sure? Source please.

Feldgrau link above says:
...
On September 22nd, 1939, shortly after the Second World War broke out, the Wilhelm Gustloff was offically commissioned into the Kriegsmarine by the German Armed Forces for use as a hospital ship. It was classified as Lazaretschiff D, or Hospital Ship D. ...
...
During the late summer and early fall of 1940, the Gustloff was ordered to prepare for operations during the planned Invasion of England, which eventually were cancelled in late summer 1940. Once more, on October 20th, 1940, the Gustloff sailed again to Oslo and took on 414 wounded for transport back to Swinemünde.

Shortly after this trip, the Gustloff was to end its service as a Lazarettschiff when it was directed that it move to Gotenhafen for service as a barracks ship for the U-boot arm of the Kriegsmarine.
...
As a Wohnschiff (barracks ship) of the Kriegsmarine, under the control of the 1.Unterseeboots-Lehrdivision, and later the 2.Unterseeboots-Lehrdivision, the Gustloff lay at anchor in Gotenhafen, its new resting place, for over four years. Then, in January of 1945, the Gustloff was once more put into service, this time as a part of the largest planned naval evacuation operation in history, the rescue and transport of millions of refugees, soldiers, sick, injured and others fleeing from the advance of the Soviet forces in east. ...

Okyzm
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Re: Killer Submarine

Post by Okyzm » 02 Apr 2010 18:39

Are you sure? Source please.

Feldgrau link above says
According to my knowledge feldgrau is an amateur site, not a serious source.

Hitler's admirals‎ -page 219
George Henry Bennett, Roy Bennett -
More than thirty-five hundred men in training for U-boat service were on the
Wilhelm Gustloff when she was sun


The World's Merchant Fleets, 1939: The Particulars And Wartime Fates of 6,000 Ships (Hardcover)
~ Roger W. Jordan
page 58 also mentions that Gustloff served as accomodation for U-boat trainees.

There are other sources for this, including memories of the soliders.

Gustloff was armed, full of military personel, and its primary mission was to transport U-Boat crews to wage war against Allied shipping. The passangers who were also Nazis, and colonists sent to Poland by Hitler(not natives of Gdynia who were ethnicly cleansed in 1939 to make room for Germans) were taken only due to chaos of the war, not because the mission of Gustloff demanded so.
By destroying this ship the Soviet commander possibly saved thousands of lifes of Allied shipping personel.

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