Hungarian Ju-86k

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PanzerKing
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Hungarian Ju-86k

Post by PanzerKing » 11 Jul 2003 00:31

Was this a good or adequate bomber? Did it suite Hungarian needs and was it effective? I can't find any decent online sources about this plane.

Thanks!

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Robert Hurst
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Post by Robert Hurst » 11 Jul 2003 14:05

Hi Panzerking

I hope the following which was taken from The Warplanes of the Third Reich, by William Green is of some use to you.

The best foreign customer for the Ju 86 was, however, destined to be Hungary. The Hungarian Government opted for a variant of the Junkers bomber powered by a Manfred Weiss-built Gnome-Rhone 14K Mistral-Major 14-cylinder air-cooled radial engine, as standard equipment for the planned two-regiment bombing component of the still-clandestine air-arm, the Magyar Kiralyi Legiero, and in 1936 had placed an initial contract for 24 Ju 86K-2s, although successive contracts were to raise to 66 the total number of bombers of this type.

Some delay in the delivery of the Ju 86K-2 to the Legiero was the direct result of the inability of Manfred Weiss's Budapest plant to meet the schedule output of Gnome-Rhone 14K engines, and the first bombers did not reach Hungary until the early months of 1938, but during the course of the summer large-scale conversion began. Supplementary contracts enabled the entire 3rd Bomber Regiment (3.Bombazo Ezred) at Tapolca and the 2nd Group (3./II Bombazo Osztaly) at Papa, the former group possessing three nine-aircraft squadrons (3/1, 3/2 and 3/3 Szazad) and the latter two squadrons (3/4 and 3/5 Szazad) with similar statutory strengths. In addition, one squadron (2/3 Szazad) of the 2nd Bomber Regiment (2.Bombazo Ezred) was equipped with the Ju 86K-2, together with one flight of each of the other two squadrons (2/4 and 2/5 Szazad) of the Regiment's 2nd Group, these being based at Szombathely.

In March 1939, shortly after the German occupation of Bohemia and Moravia, dissolving the Czechoslovak Republic, and the establishment of Slovakia as an independent republic, Hungarian forces occupied the Slovakian territory of Carpatho-Ruthenia. During the course of the brief conflict a force of 18 Ju 86K-2s from the 3/3, 3/4 and 3/5 squadrons performed bombing missions from Debrecen against the Slovakian airfield at Iglo and Slovakian defensive positions in the vicinity of the Perecsen Valley. During the course of the following summer the 2/4 squadron was reorganised as the 1st Bomber Combat Proficiency Squadron (1.Bombazo Harckikepzo Szazad) with a mixture of Ju 86K-2s and Fw 58s, and in the autumn the 2nd Bomber Regiment was disbanded. At the same time a 4th Bomber Regiment was created, the Ju 86K-equipped former 3/3 Squadron and a new Ju 86K squadron formed on aircraft drawn from the disbanded 2nd Bomber Regiment becoming the 2nd Group (4./II Bombazo Osztaly) of the new regiment at Veszprem (4/3 and 4/4 Szazad), the 1st Group (4./I Bombazo Osztaly) being formed by redesignating the remaining squadrons (3/1 and 3/2 Szazad) of the 3rd Regiment's 1st Group which became 4/1 and 4/2 Szazad). Thus, the Legiero possessed, after reorganisation, three two-squadron groups (3./II, 4./I and 4./II)equipped with Ju 86K-2s.

The Ju 86K-2 units did not participate in the limited air war that followed the Hungarian attack on Yugoslavia in concert with German forces on April 6, 1941, and two months later, on June 1, the 3./II Bombazo Osztaly was disbanded owing to the steady attrition suffered by the Ju 86K-2s and the need to bring the two groups of the 4th Regiment equipped with this now-ageing bomber up to full strength. Thus, when Hungary declared war on the Soviet Union on June 27, 1941, the Legiero possessed only two two-squadron bomber groups still operating the Junkers bomber, 4/I and 4./II both based at Debrecen With the commencement of hostilities the 4th Regiment formed a mixed independent squadron (4/O Onallo Szazad) with six Ju 86K-2s and six Caproni Ca 135bis bombers, this being flown over the Carpathians with the Air Force Brigade (Repulo Dandar) for the support of the operations of the Hungarian Fast Corps in the Soviet Union, but the days of the Ju 86K-2s in operational service were now numbered, and in 1942 the type was withdrawn from first-line service although it lingered in service with the 4./I and 4./II groups for crew training tasks.

The photos were taken from Warplanes of the Third Reich, by William Green.

Regards

Bob
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PanzerKing
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Post by PanzerKing » 11 Jul 2003 21:15

Thanks a lot, great info.

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Aufklarung
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Post by Aufklarung » 11 Jul 2003 21:23

Hi
Not to get too far off topic but did not the Swedish also buy and build Ju-86K but with Bristol Engines?

regards
A :)

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 11 Jul 2003 22:21

is it me or is it kind of looks like American medium bombers?

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 12 Jul 2003 20:43

Aufklarung,

You are right.
http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/t ... ers86.html
http://users.belgacom.net/aircraft2/avi ... .html#5245
Some pics:
http://www.luftwaffepics.com/lju861.htm

Regards, Juha

P.S. more off topic, but ...The Ju86 was one of the candidates when Finland choosed a medium (light) bomber mid-late 30´s. More modern German planes were not availlable to us. Other candidates were HP Hampden and Bristol Blenheim, the "winner".

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Post by Ike_FI » 12 Jul 2003 20:52

oleg wrote:is it me or is it kind of looks like American medium bombers?


Heh, I thought the same. The front section in the first picture looks somewhat like Liberator (except the missing two engines...) and the aft like Mitchell.

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Harri
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Post by Harri » 12 Jul 2003 21:37

Ike_FI wrote:
oleg wrote:is it me or is it kind of looks like American medium bombers?

Heh, I thought the same. The front section in the first picture looks somewhat like Liberator (except the missing two engines...) and the aft like Mitchell.


The reason is obvious: many German aircraft designers/engineers had worked in US for example with Boeing. It is not a secret that many US planes were actually designed by German engineers or former Germans, now US citizens. At least North-American Mustang was designed by a German-born engineer but I don't remember any other.

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Aufklarung
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Post by Aufklarung » 13 Jul 2003 01:23

Juha
Thanx for those links. Good info. I see it also had P&W 1690 Hornets too. 8)
Harri wrote:The reason is obvious: many German aircraft designers/engineers had worked in US for example with Boeing. It is not a secret that many US planes were actually designed by German engineers or former Germans, now US citizens. At least North-American Mustang was designed by a German-born engineer but I don't remember any other.

Really, I had thought it was that was the design of the '30s for Med bombers. :wink:
HP Hampden, HE-11B-2, LeO 451, Fiat BR 20, KI-49, and B-18 Bolo all share that pre-war look.

regards
A :)

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Harri
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Post by Harri » 13 Jul 2003 09:46

aufklarung wrote:Really, I had thought it was that was the design of the '30s for Med bombers.


Designers were much more "international" those days we can even imagine. At least Germans were very active in this sector because they couldn't officially design and produce own military types in Germany. Of course the members of such design teams brought all that knowledge and information when they returned back home. So it is not a joke to say this is one of the (main?) reasons why certain planes share many same characters and details.

This has happened also after WW II. When Soviet MiG-15 forced landed in Finland at the beginning of 1950's Finns found some interesting details: for example pedals and stick were direct copies from Bf 109! Ernst Heinkel says in his memoirs that early Soviet Jets share many details Heinkel's engineers had designed. No wonder, because MiG-15 was probably partly designed by captured German engineers of whom some had worked for Heinkel during the war. Probably former Soviets don't share Heinkel's point of view for obvious reasons... :D

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Hanski
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Post by Hanski » 13 Jul 2003 11:06

Harri wrote:
This has happened also after WW II. When Soviet MiG-15 forced landed in Finland at the beginning of 1950's Finns found some interesting details: for example pedals and stick were direct copies from Bf 109!


Although we are here sidetracking from WWII: do you know details of this incident? I understand it was a not a proper landing or forced landing, but a question of the strayed MiG-15 having run out of fuel and the pilot then bailing out with his ejection seat. The incident was never covered in public by Finnish media, and the wrecked aircraft as well as the pilot were returned in silence.

Of course, the Finnish Air Force later received two seat MiG-15UTI trainers in 1964 as part of the MiG-21 deal.

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Csaba Becze
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Post by Csaba Becze » 14 Jul 2003 18:46

About the topic: it was a quite good bomber, the first modern bomber plane of the Hungarian Air Force.
They used Hungarian Gebauer MG's with this type.
Interesting, that a Ju 86 gunner claimed the first Hungarian victory over a Soviet plane.
The type was used as a bomber till late 1941 and later as scool plane and transporter.

Csaba

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PanzerKing
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Post by PanzerKing » 14 Jul 2003 19:10

Interesting, didn't in have a bomb load of 2100 lbs?

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Post by daveh » 14 Jul 2003 19:53

Yes Panzerking 1000kg bobload for the Ju 86 D-1 and for the high altitude Ju 86 R

Interesting point, the Ju 86 was used by the South Africans to bomb the Ialians in East Africa and for coastal patrols off their own coast. this was a modified civlain Ju86 Z impressed form south african airways.

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PanzerKing
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Post by PanzerKing » 14 Jul 2003 20:34

Here's a site about the Ju-86 I just found.

http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2833/ ... /ju86.html

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