Grenzshhutz

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gebhk
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Grenzshhutz

Post by gebhk » 22 Jul 2022 16:16

Given the vast amount of information on German uniforms of WW2, I thought getting some data on the uniforms of the Grenzschutz. in 1939, would be easy. I was very much mistaken. It tuns out that it is much easier to get information on the uniforms of party regional falconry officials than of the many thousand strong border formations :roll:

Best I can make out is that they wore uniforms, basically of military cut, the most obvious difference being that the national emblem was borne on a cuff title on the left sleeve rather than on the left breast and that the collar patches were of a different colour and design (yellow/gold on red). 'Waffenfarbe' seems to have been a very dark green. I am not sure, however, whether the iniform colours were the same as in the WH. Also not entirely sure if the tunics were of the WH pattern or possibly, of the older police (eg Landespolizei) cut.

I assume that the other equipment would have been the same or similar (entrenching tools, bayonets, ammunition pouches, bread bags and gas masks + gas capes). Were belt buckles the same or different? I assume helmets would be worn in combat (M35s or M16?s). The service cap in one photo seems to be a stiff round-topped peaked hat, however this I have only seen in one photograph. Otherwise WH officer-style caps seem to be the norm.

I appreciate this is not the right section for the next two questions, but it seems sensible to keep them together, for the time being at any rate. While I assume the rifles carried by the men would have been the usual Mauser's, what were the LMGs deployed with the squads? As I understand it, significant numbers of MG13 were still available in 1939 and it seems reasonable that these might be distributed to the Grenz formations, but was that so? Or were MG34 used (or even the ancient MG08/15 and 18)? And what were the medium MGs issued to the Grenzschutz fortress MG companies? The MG08 was a perfectly serviceable weapon, it's main drawback being its weight, which was not a significant problem for fortress formations. Again, with significant stocks on hand, the Grenzschutz, therefore, seems an obvious destinaton for these weapons. However this is of course pure speculation on my part.

My objective here, is the recreation in miniature of part of Grenzwacht-Abschnitt 118 (Fraustadt), of Grenzschutz-Abschitts-Kommando 13, on 2 September 1939, as accurately as possible.

Any asnwers or pointers to any available literature, pictures, photographs etc would be very much appreciated.
Last edited by gebhk on 22 Jul 2022 23:00, edited 1 time in total.

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von thoma
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Grenzschutz

Post by von thoma » 22 Jul 2022 22:28

Hello gebhk ;

You have to Google Zollgrenzschutz-uniforms-1937-1945, for example, and it brings up several examples of these uniforms, ranks, insignia
during this period of time.

More info ;

https://www.zollgrenzschutz.de/index.ph ... Itemid=121

http://www.lbsr.cz/dr/rfv/sources/ZGS-ZGS.html
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gebhk
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Re: Grenzshhutz

Post by gebhk » 22 Jul 2022 23:57

Hi von Thoma

Many thanks for your interest and contribution which will be very useful. However, I thought the Grenzschutz and Zollgrenzschutz were different formations, the latter being a paramilitary formation of the Finance Ministry concerned primarily with customs and immigration.

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von thoma
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Grenzschutz

Post by von thoma » 23 Jul 2022 01:16

I don't quite understand what exactly you are looking for...
You ; Best I can make out is that they wore uniforms, basically of military cut, the most obvious difference being that the national emblem was borne on a cuff title on the left sleeve rather than on the left breast
Angehöriger des Zollgrenzschutz.jpg

If you are talking about of the Grenzpolizei under Gestapo control, uniforms are like these

69bLYn6.jpg


And finally, if you are talking about of these units ; https://www.axishistory.com/about-ahf/n ... ommando-13
They wore similar uniforms and equipment to Wehrmacht/Heer formations, as fighting troops.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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gebhk
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Re: Grenzshhutz

Post by gebhk » 23 Jul 2022 07:19

Hi von Thoma

Yes to the last. I am talking about the troops of Grenzschutz-AbschnittsKommando 13 - specificaslly Grenzwacht Abschnitt 118.

On the one or two photos I have seen identified as Grenzschutz (not Zollgrenzshutz), the uniform appears to be WH but with the national eagle on a cuff-band and the collar patches are different. The collar patches also appear to have a different pattern and colour to those of ther Zollgrenzschutz.

The whole thing is utterly confusing as all the sources I have had access to can't even agree on the names of the units - as well as the Grenzschutz there appear to have been border infantry (?Grenz-Infanterie) Regiments which were organised and equipped like regular infantry regiments - unlike the Grenzwacht-Abschnitts of the Grenzshutz which were organised and equipped quite differently. The trouble is that they were both considered regimental-level units and so are often considered to be the same and Grenzwacht Abschnitt is often translated as 'Regiment' which they clearly were not! Given the experience of the Polish troops who fought them, the picture given by Niehorster seems the most convincing, however that does not help with the uniform and weapon specifics!

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von thoma
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Re: Grenzshhutz

Post by von thoma » 23 Jul 2022 08:01

Can you upload this photo, or where to find it ?
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Re: Grenzshhutz

Post by Hans1906 » 23 Jul 2022 11:16

Hi gebhk,

The topic of the German customs authorities at that time is very complex and also confusing, even for me as a German citizen.

Here just two links for you:

https://www.zoll.de/DE/Der-Zoll/Zollmus ... _node.html

https://training.ehri-project.eu/deutsc ... 933-–-1945

I still have some interesting photos from an old hard drive, I have to look for them first, I'll post them here later, sorry...


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gebhk
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Re: Grenzshhutz

Post by gebhk » 23 Jul 2022 19:47

Hi von Thoma
I have tried a number of times to load pictures and have failed miserably. There are two photos on this forum, in the vehicle ident section. The fly in the ointment is that the first shows a bunch of what I presume to be officers on what looks like a trip to a party so in going-out uniform rather than field or service uniform. The second is of a chap pictued in 1940. So who knows - something may well have changed in unifrom details between 1939 and then. He is definitely in a military rather than police tunic, however and, aside from insignia, entirely in military gear.

viewtopic.php?f=132&t=44612&p=1879948&h ... z#p1879944
viewtopic.php?f=47&t=73232&p=1885908&hi ... z#p1885748
Last edited by gebhk on 23 Jul 2022 20:39, edited 1 time in total.

gebhk
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Re: Grenzshhutz

Post by gebhk » 23 Jul 2022 20:38

Hi Hans

Many thanks. I am reading with interest, however this material seems to relate to the Ministry of Finance Zollgrenzschutz (ie customs) rather than the military Grenzschutz (ie border security). It was just as complex, perhaps more so, on the other side of the border in Poland. While the Straz Graniczna (Border Guard) of the Ministry of Internal Affairs combined the tasks that were handled by Grenschutz and Zollgrenzshutz in germany, it too was stiffened with military units as a matter of routine and the border with the USSR was manned aby an altogether different organisation - the KOP (Korpus Ochrony Pogranicza - Borderland Security Corps) also financed and nominally under the control of the MNinistry of Internal Affairs buit in fact an entirely military force.

I suspect that no matter where, trying to figure out the precise details of form and function of border formations is likely to give one a headache, regardless which country we examine :|

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K

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Re: Grenzshhutz

Post by zollgrenzschutz » 10 Sep 2023 16:54

gebhk wrote:
23 Jul 2022 19:47
Hi von Thoma
I have tried a number of times to load pictures and have failed miserably. There are two photos on this forum, in the vehicle ident section. The fly in the ointment is that the first shows a bunch of what I presume to be officers on what looks like a trip to a party so in going-out uniform rather than field or service uniform. The second is of a chap pictued in 1940. So who knows - something may well have changed in unifrom details between 1939 and then. He is definitely in a military rather than police tunic, however and, aside from insignia, entirely in military gear.

viewtopic.php?f=132&t=44612&p=1879948&h ... z#p1879944
viewtopic.php?f=47&t=73232&p=1885908&hi ... z#p1885748
Hi gebhk
The first picture relates to the customs protection. Those people belonged to the German Zollgrenzschutz, that was placed to most of the borders of the occupied territories. The car is a Tempo G1200, a car with a 4wd, that had 2 engines (one in the front and one in the back). Unfortunately no idea where the picture was taken. "IK" refers to Schlesien (Silesia), but I've seen those numberplates already in France, Generalgouvernement and Serbia.
The second one is a customs member as well, but I doubt that it is a car used by the Zollgrenzschutz. Their cars usually did not use those signs on the fender, they just had an additional shield with "Zoll" close to the numberplate.
If you like to learn more about Zollgrenzschutz, just visit my website www.zollgrenzschutz.de
KR,
Marc

gebhk
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Re: Grenzshhutz

Post by gebhk » 17 Sep 2023 12:22

Hi Marc

Apologies for slippage.

Thanks for that, albeit depressing, information :) . If you are correct (and your credentials suggest that you almost certainly are!), then I am left with no pictures or information on the combat uniforms of the Grenzschutz-AbschnittsKommando :( .

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