A Serious question about Russian war criminals

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Dan Feltmate
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A Serious question about Russian war criminals

Post by Dan Feltmate » 13 May 2002 20:36

Hello,

I am wondering what the possiblity of bringing to justice Russian war criminals for atrocities commited against the German civilians. Do many of you beleive this is possible? Has anyone ever done it before? Have any American soldiers been convicted of war crimes? HAVE ANY ALLIED soldiers been convicted of war crimes?


I know this has been covered before, and that the victors write the history, but is this remotely possible?

Jim
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Post by Jim » 13 May 2002 20:48

It's an interesting question. The Barbie defense hinged on the idea that you can't try someone for crimes that you yourself are guilty of, so it might be assumed that German victims don't have a leg to stand on. Not necessarily my opinion, but just the way the material *might* be interpreted.

As for Allied officiers, that's kind of relevant because of the recent suggestions that Kissinger should be put on trial for war crimes. However, since Bush has stated that he's not signing any agreement that allows US citizens to be put on trial, I don't think it's going to happen. And Bomber Harris has been dead for years hasn't he?

If anyone has anyone more information about the Kissinger accusations then I'd love to hear it.

Jim.

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Roberto
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Re: A Serious question about Russian war criminals

Post by Roberto » 13 May 2002 20:55

Dan Feltmate wrote:Hello,

I am wondering what the possiblity of bringing to justice Russian war criminals for atrocities commited against the German civilians. Do many of you beleive this is possible? Has anyone ever done it before? Have any American soldiers been convicted of war crimes? HAVE ANY ALLIED soldiers been convicted of war crimes?


I know this has been covered before, and that the victors write the history, but is this remotely possible?


Russian soldiers? Seems rather impracticable. Most World War II veterans still alive are old men by now, and even where it could be proven that they were involved in atrocities I doubt anyone would touch honorable elder citizens with bemedaled chests.

As to the US Army, there is some information on this website:

http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/facts.html

Dan Feltmate
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.

Post by Dan Feltmate » 13 May 2002 21:16

I am still wondering about it though, to see if it is possible. I wonder how many Russian war criminals (if any at all, or if there are ANY allied war criminals living in Canada) could be brought to justice if an organization would be willing to research, fund, and bring men to justice for there use of "excessive" force.


Nice word usage on the excessive eh? I had to think for a minute about the troper word to use.

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Post by Tchort » 14 May 2002 00:45

Hey Roberto, why is it ok to just let the Soviet scum slide? If this were about more German 'war criminals' everyone would demand them brought to trial-even if they're in their 70's. Maybe its just me, but I think a man who served his country and helped create a clean and healthy enviroment is just a tad less guilty than a Rusky from Siberia who raped little girls with bayonets and nailed women to barn doors :|

Dan Feltmate
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.

Post by Dan Feltmate » 14 May 2002 01:20

Tchort, Roberto & Jim

Hello,

Do any of you know of an organization that would dedicate it's time to prosecuting war criminals on the Allied side of the front lines? I think that this is a ncessary step, and would bring proper justice to people deserving it.

Tchort, I am to assume you would support such actions as prosecuting Allied war criminals?

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 14 May 2002 12:34

Tchort wrote:Hey Roberto, why is it ok to just let the Soviet scum slide?


I didn't say it was oK. I only assessed the practical possibilities of prosecution, which I consider to be scarce.

If this were about more German 'war criminals' everyone would demand them brought to trial-even if they're in their 70's. Maybe its just me, but I think a man who served his country and helped create a clean and healthy enviroment is just a tad less guilty than a Rusky from Siberia who raped little girls with bayonets and nailed women to barn doors :|


Yeah, an Aryan soldier who shot women and children into mass graves, burned them alive inside barns or churches or had them clear minefields with their feet is less guilty than a Slav subhuman who did similar things. Very instructive.

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Benoit Douville
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Katyn Memorial

Post by Benoit Douville » 02 Jun 2002 18:56

The biggest Soviet crime...
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Oswald Mosley
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Post by Oswald Mosley » 17 Jun 2002 00:33

The usual bitchiness is back on this thread.................

There is NO moral justification whatsoever as to why Russian (or other Allied) war criminals have not been pursued, but as always in history the victors played the part of judges and juries, and it's pretty obvious that they would never accuse themselves of any crimes! Still, they will all meet the Ultimate Judge when their turn comes to depart this world.

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Phil V
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Post by Phil V » 17 Jun 2002 04:37

Without going into detail.

Loser always pays the price no matter what.

Winner gets to name his price.

One side will always be seen as bad and the other side as good.

Unfortunate? Yes.

Unfair? Yes.

True? Yes.

The Russians committed horrible war crimes. The Allies dropped the A-Bomb and killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians.

Only Germans were tried for war crimes.

The winners make the rules.

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Re: A Serious question about Russian war criminals

Post by Ovidius » 17 Jun 2002 08:57

Roberto wrote:Russian soldiers? Seems rather impracticable. Most World War II veterans still alive are old men by now, and even where it could be proven that they were involved in atrocities I doubt anyone would touch honorable elder citizens with bemedaled chests.


Most Axis WWII veterans still alive are old men by now, and wherever it could be proven(or even where it couldn't be proven) that they were involved in atrocities, these honorable elder citizens with bemedaled chests were treated as we all know, considering the threads on this very section of the forum.

This is the Victor's Justice, which is obviously the rightest and fairest sort of justice the world has ever seen. :mrgreen:

And not only that. The repressive machinery(police, courts, propaganda etc) could do its job, but they were not alone in this effort. Plenty of ordinary citizens, who were not in touch with the problem, helped them. Wherever there is a discussion about warcrimes on this forum, plenty of people just interfere and try to excuse, cover and deny any crime on the Allied side, while the same people jump to the neck of anyone who dares to be outraged by the fact that the Victor's Justice had deemed the entire SS(without any separation between Waffen or Allgemeine) a "criminal organization", or by the treatment the veterans of the Third Reich had received over the years.

Obviously those brave and loyal soldiers of the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics did their duty as well as possible, to eradicate the "monstrous Hitlerian regime", and the fact that a lot of monstrous Hitlerian people in Nemmersdorf and everywhere were butchered was just a bonus. And whoever helped them inside Germany was not a traitor, but a honest person who had cooperated to the eradication of the monstrous Hitlerian regime.

At least this seems to have been the opinion on some certain members on this forum, who:

- ask for sources everytime claims on Communist atrocities are posted;
- mostly deny the validity of the above-said sources;
- accept without doubts the most gruesome claims on Hitlerian atrocities, including RJ Rummel's idiocy with the quicklime(those involved know what I'm talking about);
- deny whatever bad is said about life in Communism and on other side talk endlessly about the huge number of deaths the Communist regime caused, this meaning that the only fault of Communism is that it killed, and those alive have nothing to complain about;

~Ovidius

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Post by Tarpon27 » 17 Jun 2002 12:27

Max Brandt wrote:
The Russians committed horrible war crimes. The Allies dropped the A-Bomb and killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians.


Just a question, but it is the weapon that is the atrocity? In other words, the use of incendiaries which killed more is acceptable, but the atom bomb was not?

Max Brandt wrote:

Only Germans were tried for war crimes.


This is not true.

Regards,

Mark

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Roberto
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Re: A Serious question about Russian war criminals

Post by Roberto » 17 Jun 2002 12:48

Ovidius wrote:At least this seems to have been the opinion on some certain members on this forum, who:

- ask for sources everytime claims on Communist atrocities are posted;


What’s wrong with asking for sources, Ovi? Any assertion made on this forum should have legs underneath, otherwise this will cease to be a historical forum.

Ovidius wrote:-mostly deny the validity of the above-said sources;


Depends. Any examples – other than the rather dubious Leonora Geier story featured in some Nazi paper – that my outraged friend can point out?

Ovidius wrote:- accept without doubts the most gruesome claims on Hitlerian atrocities, including RJ Rummel's idiocy with the quicklime(those involved know what I'm talking about);


I don’t remember the quicklime having been discussed on this forum. What my friend is obviously referring to is the following quote featured at the beginning of chapter 2 of Rummel’s Democide: Nazi Genocide and Mass Murder:

Hitler told Himmler that it was not enough for the Jews simply to die; they must die in agony. What was the best way to prolong their agony? Himmler turned the problem over to his advisers, who concluded that a slow, agonizing death could be brought about by placing Jewish prisoners in freight cars in which the floors were coated with …quicklime… which produced excruciating burns. The advisers estimated that it would take four days for the prisoners to die, and for that whole time the freight cars could be left standing on some forgotten siding … Finally it was decided that the freight cars should be used in addition to the extermination camps.
- Robert Payne, The Life and Death of Adolf Hitler


Ovi is not trying to tell us that whoever quotes passages from Rummel’s book on Nazi genocide and mass murder is necessarily accepting the accuracy of the quoted passage from Payne’s book, is he?

Quicklime was used in the railway cars taking people to the extermination camps, by the way. There are testimonials from survivors of the Reinhard(t) camps to that effect. Where Payne probably went wrong was in his assumption that this was done to torment the deportees. The purpose is more likely to have been aiding the cleaning of the cars before sending them back for the next load.

Ovidius wrote: - deny whatever bad is said about life in Communism and on other side talk endlessly about the huge number of deaths the Communist regime caused, this meaning that the only fault of Communism is that it killed, and those alive have nothing to complain about;


Another one of Ovi’s fantasies. Who on this forum ever said that the only bad thing about Communism were the killings perpetrated by Stalin, Mao and other tyrants? Who said that life under Communism was worth aspiring to?

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Re: A Serious question about Russian war criminals

Post by Ovidius » 17 Jun 2002 14:45

Roberto wrote:the rather dubious Leonora Geier story featured in some Nazi paper


As you've resurfaced this gruesome story, available here:

http://home.att.net/~genophilia/mw1.htm

I would like to remind you and others that the executioners were instigated - according to the testimony - by a Soviet, but they were not Soviets. They were Poles(presumably this could be deduced by the way they spoke).

So the Soviet commissar did not want to stain either his hands, or the hands of his soldiers, with blood. He just askd the Poles to do the butchery.

Very interesting and instructive. :mrgreen:

~Ovidius

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Roberto
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Re: A Serious question about Russian war criminals

Post by Roberto » 17 Jun 2002 15:17

Ovidius wrote:As you've resurfaced this gruesome story, available here:

http://home.att.net/~genophilia/mw1.htm


A site not to careful about its sources, relying on the “account given by Leonora Geier (born, October 22nd 1925, Sao Paulo, Brazil) to Dr. Trutz Foelsche, Ph.D, the original account of which appeared in Deutsche Nationalzeitung, No.17-65, p.7.” Apart from the very dubious source, there are also other suspicious features about the story. Shall we go through them again?

The Leonora Geier story is featured by several online websites:

murungu@interserv.com
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a39afdc7717be.htm
http://www.primenet.com/~rvolk/english/ ... 60531.html
http://home.att.net/~genophilia/mw1.htm

All these sites are fervently anti-communist and/or support views of the extreme right. The source of the story is given as follows:

“…the following report which first appeared 30 years ago in the Deutschland Journal of April 23, on p. 7 of issue 17.”
murungu@interserv.com

“P. 7, issue 17, April 23, 1965 (Deutschland-Journal). Report of the German-Brazilian citizen Leonora Geier, nee Cavoa, born on October 22, 1925 in Sao Paulo, Brazil.”
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a39afdc7717be.htm

“the following report which first appeared 30 years ago in the Deutschland Journal of April 23, on p. 7 of issue 17.”
http://www.primenet.com/~rvolk/english/ ... 60531.html

“The following is an excerpt from an eyewitness's account given by Leonora Geier (born, October 22nd 1925, Sao Paulo, Brazil) to Dr. Trutz Foelsche, Ph.D, the original account of which appeared in Deutsche Nationalzeitung, No.17-65, p.7.”
http://home.att.net/~genophilia/mw1.htm

Note that the last source mentions the “Deutsche Nationalzeitung” instead of the “Deutschland Journal” as the publication in which the account first appeared. Both are publications of the extreme right, but there seems to be some uncertainty among those who circulate the story as to where it first appeared. The last mentioned source also states that Leonora Geier’s alleged account was made to a Dr. Trutz Foelsche, Ph.D, whereas the others speak of a report written and signed in the presence of several witnesses, but not before any given person or entity. Some of the web sites join an alleged report by an anonymous German infantryman supposedly corroborating the story, which is basically the following:

Leonora Geier, a native Brazilian living in Eastern Germany at the end of the war, was overrun in mid-February, 1945 at Camp “Vilmsee” of the RAD (Reichsarbeitsdienst, I presume) near Neustettin by Soviet troops of the First Belorussian Front, together with a large number of other women in that camp.
Due to her Brazilian nationality, Geier was spared, but all other women were tortured to death in the most brutal manner by Soviet troops and local Poles in an orgy of sadism organized by the Soviet commissar in charge to “turn the Master Race into whimpering bits of misery”, which Geier was forced to watch from beginning to end.

Apart from the dubiousness of the tertiary and secondary sources and the uncertainty as to the nature of the primary source referred to therein, namely the circumstances under which it came into being, there are several other reasons to be highly skeptical as to the veracity of this highly gory story. It doesn’t seem plausible, first of all, that a camp full of women, many of them young and beautiful, should have been allowed or allowed itself to fall into the hands of the Red Army as late as mid-February, 1945. Red Army atrocities being known since the massacre of Nemmersdorf in October of 1944, such a place is would have been evacuated in the course of the great exodus of German civilians fleeing from Soviet troops after their breakthrough on the Vistula front in early January. Second, it is highly unlikely that Soviet troops, notorious sex-starved rapists, should have cut their victims apart or clubbed them to death as described instead of raping them and then killing some of them and keeping most others as camp whores, as they are known to have done in many instances. Third, plunder, rape and murder were officially forbidden to Soviet troops, especially at this time when the Soviet high command was beginning to worry about their discipline. This didn’t keep Soviet soldiers from committing many individual acts of rape and murder, but it makes it seem rather unlikely that an orgy of sadism should have been organized by or taken place under the auspices of a Soviet commissar. Fourth, it is unlikely that so wild a bunch should have spared Leonora Geier on account of her Brazilian nationality (Soviet troops are known to have slain French prisoners of war on several occasions), especially after she had become a witness to all those gruesome happenings.

The Leonora Geier story is not confirmed by any German historian, although some like Jürgen Thorwald have thoroughly studied and documented the catastrophe that befell the Eastern German territories during the Red Army’s final offensive and the many atrocities committed by Soviet troops, in the context of which the Leonora Geier story would be an altogether untypical event. Soviet troops did horrible things to German people, the Nemmersdorf massacre being but one of them. But in the absence of any evidence that either Leonora Geier or the witnesses allegedly testifying to her report or Dr. Foelsche actually existed and of its confirmation by any objective source, the Leonora Geier story must be considered a myth – one that says more about the mind of its creator than about anything else.

Ovidius wrote:I would like to remind you and others that the executioners were instigated - according to the testimony - by a Soviet, but they were not Soviets. They were Poles(presumably this could be deduced by the way they spoke).

So the Soviet commissar did not want to stain either his hands, or the hands of his soldiers, with blood. He just askd the Poles to do the butchery.


Assuming that you believe the story, that is. Which takes a lot of faith, something I’m fortunately devoid of.

Ovidius wrote:Very interesting and instructive.


As an insight into the mind of whoever invented the tale, certainly so.

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