Wannsee Conference

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Annelie
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Wannsee Conference

Post by Annelie » 16 Jul 2003 22:44

What was the original agenda of the conference and why there and then?

Why build the camps in eastern Poland when they could have used the
ones close by in Bavaria and Thuringia. Why that expense at that time
late in 42/43?

Who authorized or should I ask has there been any authorization for them found?

Thanks
Annelie

Caldric
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Re: Wannsee Conference

Post by Caldric » 16 Jul 2003 23:45

Annelie wrote:What was the original agenda of the conference and why there and then?

Why build the camps in eastern Poland when they could have used the
ones close by in Bavaria and Thuringia. Why that expense at that time
late in 42/43?

Who authorized or should I ask has there been any authorization for them found?

Thanks
Annelie
To change the way Jews were being deported, also to change the hierarchical (correct word?) leanage of who gets stamped as Jew. That is my understanding of the main points, basically a rally to say it is not being done fast enough and that too many are using loopholes to get out of being deported.

Of course what is to be done when they arrive was important also.

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Helly Angel
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Re: Wannsee Conference

Post by Helly Angel » 17 Jul 2003 04:44

Annelie wrote:What was the original agenda of the conference and why there and then?
The "Global solution" (Gesamtlösung) of Jewish question. Accord the order from Marschal Göring to Heydrich with date July 31, 1941 like the
Plenipotenciary to "Final Solution" (Endlösung)

Wannse is a discreet suburb.

Heydrich extended the invitation a meeting high Reich Leaders in December 1941. I cannot remember the exactly date but was suspended for Pearl Harbour.

The second invitation was to January 20, 1942.
Annelie wrote: Why build the camps in eastern Poland when they could have used the ones close by in Bavaria and Thuringia.
The territory of the Reich was just to KZ with Political dissidents not racial elements. The plan to the Endslösung must be outside of the Reich in Poland. Far of Germany.
Annelie wrote:Why that expense at that time late in 42/43?
The plan to Endslösung was ordered in July 31, 1941. It was part important of the Plan. Was considerated like important part of the War. The plan started until mid 1942. They believed the War will finish in 1944.
Annelie wrote: Who authorized or should I ask has there been any authorization for them found?

The original Memo from Göring to Heydrich is dated from July 31, 1941.

Göring was ReichMinister, ReichsMarschall, First Minister, Minister of Internal Affairs from Prussia, Minister of the Aviation, Commander of the Luftwaffe,
Plenipotenciary for the Special Plan of the four years of Militarization of Germany and legally the sucessor of the Führer accord Decree with date June 29, 1941.

Heydrich extended the invitation a meeting high Reich Leaders in December 1941. I cannot remember the exactly date but was suspended for Pearl Harbour.

The second invitation was to January 20, 1942.

In the meeting were presents High functionaries from the RSHA, Internal Affairs Ministery, External Affairs Ministery, Polizei, Goverment from Poland, Plan of 4 years and NSDAP between others functionaries.

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Panzercommander_Kleist
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Post by Panzercommander_Kleist » 17 Jul 2003 08:08

Not that it is important, but I happen to know the date in December. I just finished a book on it, actuall, and if you want the name, I'll gladly give it to you. The date was originally set for December 9th, but as Helly Angel said, it was canelled because of Pearl Harbor. Anyway, just thought I would share that. 8)

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Post by michael mills » 17 Jul 2003 15:32

The agenda of the Wannsee Conference, which never changed, was to inform senior representatives of the main German ministries that Heydrich had been given supreme authority over all policy relating to Jews, and to obtain their assent to that authority, which would involve their abandoning their own independent initiatives in that field.

There has been much uninformed comment about the postponement of the conference from December 1941 to January 1942. The facts are more mundane.

The original invitation set the venue for the conference at the headquarters of the International Criminal Police Commission (Interpol), of which Heydrich was the head, in a building situated in a street Am Kleinen Wannsee.

However, the RSHA had acquired a new building in the prestigious street called Am Grossen Wannsee, and it was decided to move the conference there, as a sort of "house-warming" for it. However, the building was being re-decorated, so the conference had to be delayed until the renovations had been completed.

That is the long and the short of it. No sudden postponement due to Pearl Harbour (sorry Americans, the world did not revolve around you then), no sudden change in the agenda.

The above detail is derived from the essay "On the Purpose of the Wannsee Conference" by Eberhard Jaeckel, in the book "Perspectives on the Holocaust: Essays in Honour of Raul Hilberg", 1995. Anybody interested can check it there.

By the way, the change of venue has not been noticed by some writers, which has led to the erroneous claim that the Wannsee Conference was actually held at Interpol Headquarters.
Last edited by michael mills on 17 Jul 2003 23:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Helly Angel
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Post by Helly Angel » 17 Jul 2003 18:07

Thanks Panzercommander_Kleist for the detail of the day.

Thanks very much Michael for your interesting post!

best,

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Post by Tarpon27 » 18 Jul 2003 00:26

Michael Mills wrote:
That is the long and the short of it. No sudden postponement due to Pearl Harbour (sorry Americans, the world did not revolve around you then), no sudden change in the agenda.
What does that mean, Michael?

Mark

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Annelie
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Post by Annelie » 18 Jul 2003 00:55

Thankyou everyone. I am trying to understand.

I am reading Mark Roseman's book on the Wannsee Conference.
It states"

...................

Heydrich created an office for Jewish emigration in Vienna to streamline the removal of Jew. But it was Gorings's mandate to Heydrich after Kristallnacht to form a Reich Central Office for Jewish Emigration in Berlin that decisively
elevated Heydrich and his staff to being leading players in the Jewish
question.

It was this mandate, in fact, or rather its extension in July l941, that provided Heydrich with formal legitimation to call the Wannsee Conference."

.......................

How sure can we be that this is correct since authors borrow (if I may use that term here) information out of other books?

Is there documentation on Goring's mandate?

BTW can anyone give their opinion on this book by Mark Roseman.
It seems to be very detailed and interesting.

Annelie

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Post by michael mills » 18 Jul 2003 00:58

Tarpon27 wrote:
Michael Mills wrote:

Quote:
That is the long and the short of it. No sudden postponement due to Pearl Harbour (sorry Americans, the world did not revolve around you then), no sudden change in the agenda.


What does that mean, Michael?

Mark
I was referring to the common misperception that the postponement of the Wannsee Conference from 9 December 1941 to 20 January 1942 was due to the attack on Pearl Harbour on 7 December.

However, the postponement had been announced well before 7 December. In fact, soon after the original invitations had gone out the venue was changed to the new building acquired by the RSHA, meaning that the meeting had to be postponed because of the internal renovations that were being carried out.

In part, I think the above misperception is due to the tendency to think that anything that happens close to a major event involving the United States must somehow be determined or influenced by that event. But it is not always so.

I refer to the book I mentioned in my first message on this thread.

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Post by David Thompson » 18 Jul 2003 01:42

Annalie -- Goering's mandate to Heydrich is dated 31 Jul 1941, and reads:

"Complementing the task that was assigned to you on the 24th of January 1939, which dealt with arriving at a through furtherance of emigration and evacuation, a solution of the Jewish problem, as advantageously as possible, I hereby charge you with making all necessary preparations in regard to organizational and financial matters for bringing out a complete solution of the Jewish question in the German sphere of influence in Europe.

Wherever other governmental agencies are involved, these are to cooperate with you.

I charge you furthermore to send me, before long, an overall plan concerning the organizational, factual, and material measures necessary for the accomplishment of the desired solution of the Jewish question."

(Tyranny on Trial 296-7)

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Post by michael mills » 18 Jul 2003 02:08

With regard to Goering's authorisation to Heydrich of 31 July 1941, it is not particularly important in itself, since it was simply the formal recognition of Heydrich's role that had been developing over some time.

There are indications that in January 1941, in the context of the planning for Barbarossa, Heydrich had made a proposal to Goering that he be given the responsibility for organising the deportation of all Jews into the territory to be conquered, which had only emerged as a possibility with Hitler's Barbarossa decision of December 1940, and had actually submitted a draft plan.

The proposal of January 1941 has not survived, but its existence is known from the many references to it in a number of sources. Apparently the plan was to deport the Jews for slave labour in the White Sea area, where the first concentration camps of the Russian Bolshevik regime had been set up. It appears that Goering gave in principle approval to the development of a deportation plan by the RSHA, that Eichmann's office worked on it through 1941, and that that was the plan that was presented at the Wannsee Conference.

The role of Goering needs to be understood. As Plenipotentiary for the Four-Year Plan, Goering had ultimate authority for all logistical decisions relating to the planning of the war, eg the deployment of resources. industrial production etc. Mass movement of populations came under Goering's aegis, therefore, since they were a logistical matter, involving the use of transport resources, and also were an important determinant of the supply of labour. Therefore, any plan for the mass-deportation of Jews had to be approved by Goering.

The most probable reason for Heydrich's approach to Goering in July 1941, mid-way through the process of preparing the deportation plan, was the need to obtain written confirmation of Heydrich's authority which he could use to prevent other branches of the German Government from proceeding with their own rival plans concerning the Jews. The subsequent Wannsee Conference was simply a vehicle for disseminating that written authority to the rival agencies and obtaining their submission; it had no other purpose.

One reason why Heydrich needed the official written authorisation from Goering is that up until that point his sole official authority in relation to Jewish policy was the co-ordination of emigration, which in wartime conditions was becoming less important. The diminution of the importance of emigration provided an opportunity for other German Government agencies to get into the "Final Solution" act; for example, it was the German Foreign Office which made the running on the Madagascar Plan. Heydrich wanted to put a stop to the proliferation of alternative plans.

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Post by michael mills » 18 Jul 2003 02:13

Annelie wrote:
BTW can anyone give their opinion on this book
I have not read the book, and have never heard of Roseman. Can you give us any idea of his credentials? Is he an academic historian, or a popular writer?

I can do no better than refer you to the essay by Eberhard Jaeckel in the book I mentioned in my first post. Jaeckel is a respected academic historian, and his presentation of the purpose of the Wannsee Conference and its context is very detailed and well-sourced.

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Annelie
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Post by Annelie » 18 Jul 2003 02:25

Michael,

From jacket cover,

the author of A Past In Hiding and a wiinner of the Fraenkel Prize in contemporary history and the Wingate Literary Prize for nonfiction,
Mark Roseman "teaches" at the University of Southampton and has
published widely on German history. He lives in Southampton,
England.

Thankyou for the explanation. It begins to become clear!

Annelie

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Post by Tarpon27 » 18 Jul 2003 02:53

Michael Mills wrote:
I was referring to the common misperception that the postponement of the Wannsee Conference from 9 December 1941 to 20 January 1942 was due to the attack on Pearl Harbour on 7 December.
Oh? By whom?

In other words, this "common" misperception over the date of the Wannasee Conference vs. the attack on Pearl Harbor, and Hitler's subsequent declaration of war on the USA, was confused by whom? Obviously versus the Wannasee Conference...

Michael Mills wrote:
In part, I think the above misperception is due to the tendency to think that anything that happens close to a major event involving the United States must somehow be determined or influenced by that event. But it is not always so.
You made your statement. I called you on it.

No one, as far as I know, held you at gunpoint to say:

Michael Mills wrote:
...(sorry Americans, the world did not revolve around you then)...

Thank you for your usual informative post(s). You are a wealth of information, in so many ways.

Mark

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Post by Panzercommander_Kleist » 18 Jul 2003 03:57

Annelie wrote:I am reading Mark Roseman's book on the Wannsee Conference.
That's the book I read. :) I found it interesting. If you want to see the mandate Goering sent, I found a site with a picture of it.

the site is: http://www.ghwk.de/engl/kopfengl.htm

~Nicole

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