1943: Schindler said "No general order to exterminate J

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michael mills
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1943: Schindler said "No general order to exterminate J

Post by michael mills » 23 Jul 2003 12:25

The introduction to the book "Das Letzte Kapitel", by two German leftist historians Goetz Aly and Christian Gerlach, contain some interesting excerpts from a document dating from November 1943.

This document records a meeting in Budapest between two Hungarian Zionist leaders, Rezsoe Kasztner and Samuel Springmann, with a visiting Austrian industrialist, identified only as "Herr X". From the details given about "Herr X", Aly and Gerlach conclude that he is none other than the well-known Oskar Schindler.

Schindler had some interesting things to say. Here are some of them; they consist of a question by Kasztner and Springmann, followed by Schindler's answer:
- Wieviel Juden existieren noch in Polen? Er denkt nach und rechnet.

- Es gibt noch etwa 17 Lager. In diesen koennen 220 - 250.000 Juden leben. Diese sind legal. Ausser diesen leben beinahe ebenso viele illegal versteckt in Bunkern, bei Ariern, auf arischen Papieren, als Halbjuden oder als Partisanen.

- Wollen Sie uns erklaeren, gab es eine allgemeine Verordnung zur Ausrottung der Juden von Polen? Wenn ja, warum ist noch 1/4 Million am Leben gelassen? Wenn nicht: warum haben sie Millionen vernichtet?

- Ich glaube nicht, lautet die Antwort, dass es eine allgemeine Verordnung gab. Ich nehme eher an, dass ein jeder SS-Fuehrer den anderen mit Vernichtungsziffern uebertreffen wollte. Keiner von diesen wollte seine Karriere aufs Spiel setzen. Die Initiative ist aber nicht von ihnen gekommen. Eine hoehere Stelle hat sie beauftragt, wahrscheinlich gefaehrliche oder nutzlose Juden zu vernichten. Sie haben diesen Auftrag mit der Brutalitaet vollstreckt, an die sie schon zu Hause gewoehnt waren. [......]

My translation:
- How many Jews still exist in Poland? He thinks about it and calculates.

- There are still about 17 camps. In these 220-250,000 Jews may be living. These are the legal ones. Apart from them, almost as many are living illegally in hiding, in Bunkers, with Aryans, on Aryan papers, as half-Jews or as partisans.

- Will you explain to us, was there a general order for the extermination of the Jews of Poland? If yes, why have 1/4 million been left alive? If not, why have they destroyed millions?

- I do not believe, goes the answer, that there was a general order. Rather, I presume that each individual SS-leader wanted to outdo the others with numbers of those destroyed. None of them wanted to put his career on the line. But the initiative did not come from them. A higher authority has commissioned them, probably to destroy dangerous or useless Jews. They have executed this commission with the brutality to which they were already used to at home. [.....]
In expressing the above opinion, Schindler effectively negated one of the three central theses of the "Holocaust" concept, namely that there was a centrally ordered and organised German Government program to exterminate specifically all Jews in German hands.

Instead of a general order to exterminate all Jews (which would derive from an irrational anti-Semitism), Schindler believed that SS-leaders had been commissioned by a higher authority, presumably Himmler, to kill two specific categories of Jews, namely those considered dangerous and those considered useless. In other words, the authorisation to kill was selective, and based on rational criteria.

The two different types of killing, of dangerous opponents on the one hand and "useless eaters" on the other, were applied by the German Government not only to Jews but to many different population groups under its control. Examples of dangerous opponents, the killing of whom was authorised, are leading Bolsheviks, commissars, potential resistance leaders etc. Examples of "useless eaters" are non-working mental patients in Germany and in some occupied countries.

According to Schindler, the authorisation to kill was implemented by individual SS-leaders with the brutality that was part of the corporate culture of that organisation, and competed with each other to achieve the highest "score", thus resulting in such a high death-toll.

It is apparent that Schindler's analysis of the driving force behind the mass-killing is totally compatible with the thesis proposed by David Irving in 1977, according to which there was no centralised extermination program ordered by Hitler, but rather a series of separate actions by individual German authorities.

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Max
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Post by Max » 23 Jul 2003 13:00

In other words, the authorisation to kill was selective, and based on rational criteria
Examples of "useless eaters" are non-working mental patients in Germany and in some occupied countries.
Perhaps you could exand on your definition of "useless eaters" [ it is evedent that the vast majority were not mental patients]and explain in what way their murder could be held to be "rational"

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Post by michael mills » 23 Jul 2003 15:13

Schindler was also questioned by Kasztner and Springmann on the subject of the numbers of Jews who had been killed as of November 1943. He also informed them of a change in German Government policy to one of keeping the working Jews alive, which however was not always respected by the SS-men at the coalface.
Schindler: - Vor einigen Wochen ist eine Verordnung von Himmler in diesem Sinne ausgegeben worden. Die Tendenz ist sichtbar. Man will die juedischen Arbeitskraefte schonen. [.....]

- Und wie wird diese Verordnung respektiert?

- Also: ungefaehr, lautet die aufrichtge Antwort. Schauen Sie: Diese SS-Fuehrer koennen sich schwer abgewoehnen, taeglich einige 10 oder 100 Juden zu erschiessen. [.......]

- Wie hoch schaetzen Sie die Zahl der seit Ausbruch des Krieges ermordeten Juden?

- Das ist schwer festzustellen - sagt er. Ich kann nur von der Zahl sprechen, die mir die SS-Fuehrer angegben haben. Die sprechen von 4 - 4 1/2 Millionen, aber ich halte diese Zahl fuer uebertrieben. Sie ruehmen sich naemlich mit diesen Zahlen.

My translation:

Schindler: - A few weeks ago an order by Himmler was issued to that effect. The tendency is visible. They want to conserve the Jewish labour force. [.....]

- And how is this order being observed?

- Well, only so-so, is the honest answer. Look here: These SS-leaders find it difficult to get out of the habit of shooting some tens or hundreds of Jews daily.

- How high do you estimate the number of Jews murdered since the outbreak of the war?

- That is difficult to determine - says he. I can only speak of the number that the SS-leaders have indicated to me. They talk of 4 - 4 1/2 million, but I consider that number exaggerated. The fact is that they boast about these figures.
Note that Schindler considers a figure of four to four and one-half million Jews killed by November 1943 an exaggeration.

Just a month before this conversation between Schindler and the two Hungarian Zionist leaders occurred, the World Jewish Congress published a book called "Hitler's 10-year War on the Jews". That book contained a statistical appendix, in which it was estimated that as of September 1943 a total of just over five million Jews had been displaced from their homes, and of those just over three million had perished.

Now the WJC's estimate of three million dead is considerably below the figure given by Schindler for essentially the same period. The discrepancy can probably be explained as an under-estimate by the WJC compared with an exaggeration by the SS-leaders from whom Schindler derived his figure.

If we take the median between the low WJC figure of three million and the Schindler's exaggeratedly high figure of 4.5 million, we get 3.75 million, which is probably a reasonable estimate of the number of Jews who had perished by close to the end of 1943. It should however be noted that the Soviet Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee, in a letter to Stalin of March 1944, estimated the total Jewish dead by that date as four million.

From our median estimate of 3.75 million, we can attain a reasonable approximation of the total number of Jews who had perished by the end of the war. By November 1943, most of the major episodes of extermination had been concluded; the only large actions remaining were the Hungarian deportation in May-July 1944, and the liquidation of the Lodz Ghetto in August of that year.

If we add 400,000 dead from the Hungarian deportation, that brings the total up to 4.15 million. Additional casualties might bring the total up to around 4.3 million, slightly above Reitlinger's lower figure. Accordingly, Reitlinger's 1953 estimate receives support from the figures quoted by Schindler, bearing in mind his caveat as to their being exaggerated.

Schindler's estimate of the number of Jews killed by November 1943, when grossed up, therefore contradicts the second major thesis of the "Holocaust" concept, which is that the total number of victims must be six million or very close to it.

Also, what Schindler says about Himmler's order to conserve the Jewish workforce is significant, in that it demonstrates that it was not a case of the German Government pursuing a program of remorseless extermination until the end of the war.

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Post by michael mills » 23 Jul 2003 15:17

Max wrote:
Perhaps you could exand on your definition of "useless eaters" [ it is evedent that the vast majority were not mental patients]and explain in what way their murder could be held to be "rational".
The term "useless eaters" (unnuetze Fresser) was one used quite widely by German Government agencies.

It denotes persons who consume far more than they produce. Killing them is rational, since it reduces the consumption of resources, leaving more available for productive elements of the population, while not impacting markedly on production.

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Post by David Thompson » 23 Jul 2003 15:23

Michael -- What was the basis of Schindler's information and assessments?

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Post by Xanthro » 23 Jul 2003 15:31

David Thompson wrote:Michael -- What was the basis of Schindler's information and assessments?
Way too lenient of a question.

First, there is no proof it is even Schindler to begin with. It's Mr. X.

Typical Jew Hating technique. Apply to Mr. X the indentify of someone else, then start claiming it's actually him.

Of course, even if it were Schindler, how would he be able to positively know the answer to the questions poised?

Schindler wouldn't. The only reason resident Jew Hater Mills posts this, as otherwise he hates Schindler, is that the hopes it will infect the minds of others with Mill's own twisted sickness.

This is just your standard Jew Hating Holocaust denier tactic. Greatly overstate any type of evidence they feel can convince the uniformed that the Holocaust didn't happen.

When Michael Mills catches a cold, he blames he Jewish neighbors for casting spells on him. To him and his ilk, all manner of evil stems from Jews.

It's as rational as his logic in this thread.

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Post by michael mills » 23 Jul 2003 15:32

The source of Schindler's information is not stated in the record of the conversation between him and the two Hungarian Zionist leaders, at least not in the excerpts given in "Das Letzte Kapitel".

However, Schindler was an Abwehr agent who had been sent to Krakow to liaise with the local Zionist organisation (Yitzhak Stern, Schindler's "book-keeper", was the Zionist leader for Western Poland), and also to spy on the local SS. I would imagine that he would have had access to some pretty good information from Abwehr sources.

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Post by David Thompson » 23 Jul 2003 15:35

Xanthro -- Please do not personalize your argument with insulting remarks.

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Post by ChristopherPerrien » 23 Jul 2003 15:39

presumably Himmler, to kill two specific categories of Jews, namely those considered dangerous and those considered useless.
Using these two categorical definitions, I would say that can include all the Jews.

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Post by Xanthro » 23 Jul 2003 15:58

ChristopherPerrien wrote:
presumably Himmler, to kill two specific categories of Jews, namely those considered dangerous and those considered useless.
Using these two categorical definitions, I would say that can include all the Jews.
I hope you meant, "Using these two categorical definitions, I woud say the Nazis would include all Jews."

The way you wrote it, it sounds like you personally believe that all Jews fall into the categories of either dangerous or useless.

Xanthro

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Post by ChristopherPerrien » 23 Jul 2003 16:37

Do you look for nazi's under every rock? Chill....

No I am speaking about the context of this topic.
The terms dangerous and useless are ambiguous enough to include all to whatever ss competition is being mentioned in the original quote.

My translation:
- How many Jews still exist in Poland? He thinks about it and calculates.

- There are still about 17 camps. In these 220-250,000 Jews may be living. These are the legal ones. Apart from them, almost as many are living illegally in hiding, in Bunkers, with Aryans, on Aryan papers, as half-Jews or as partisans.

- Will you explain to us, was there a general order for the extermination of the Jews of Poland? If yes, why have 1/4 million been left alive? If not, why have they destroyed millions?

- I do not believe, goes the answer, that there was a general order. Rather, I presume that each individual SS-leader wanted to outdo the others with numbers of those destroyed. None of them wanted to put his career on the line. But the initiative did not come from them. A higher authority has commissioned them, probably to destroy dangerous or useless Jews. They have executed this commission with the brutality to which they were already used to at home. [.....]
Any way the way the info from this Nov 1943 docuement that these two authors present, by the way it reads and sounds , seems like bogus (false) bullshit to me.

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Post by Xanthro » 23 Jul 2003 16:45

ChristopherPerrien wrote:Do you look for nazi's under every rock? Chill....

No I am speaking about the context of this topic.
The terms dangerous and useless are ambiguous enough to include all to whatever ss competition is being mentioned in the original quote.

My translation:
- How many Jews still exist in Poland? He thinks about it and calculates.

- There are still about 17 camps. In these 220-250,000 Jews may be living. These are the legal ones. Apart from them, almost as many are living illegally in hiding, in Bunkers, with Aryans, on Aryan papers, as half-Jews or as partisans.

- Will you explain to us, was there a general order for the extermination of the Jews of Poland? If yes, why have 1/4 million been left alive? If not, why have they destroyed millions?

- I do not believe, goes the answer, that there was a general order. Rather, I presume that each individual SS-leader wanted to outdo the others with numbers of those destroyed. None of them wanted to put his career on the line. But the initiative did not come from them. A higher authority has commissioned them, probably to destroy dangerous or useless Jews. They have executed this commission with the brutality to which they were already used to at home. [.....]
Any way the way the info from this Nov 1943 docuement that these two authors present, by the way it reads and sounds , seems like bogus (false) bullshit to me.
I just didn't want anyone to get the miss-impression that this reflected your own ideas, based on your past posts, I didn't think it did, but pointing out that someone could misconstrue your intent allows you to clarify and prevent anyone at a later point misrepresentive your beliefs.

Xanthro

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Post by ChristopherPerrien » 23 Jul 2003 17:24

This kind of stuff is what "personalizes" these arguements. Why should someone's personal position matter, past posts?, or other things have to do with the context of the topic we are talking at this time.


I really don't get the logic behing this stuff or this either:
From our median estimate of 3.75 million, we can attain a reasonable approximation of the total number of Jews who had perished by the end of the war. By November 1943, most of the major episodes of extermination had been concluded; the only large actions remaining were the Hungarian deportation in May-July 1944, and the liquidation of the Lodz Ghetto in August of that year.

If we add 400,000 dead from the Hungarian deportation, that brings the total up to 4.15 million. Additional casualties might bring the total up to around 4.3 million, slightly above Reitlinger's lower figure. Accordingly, Reitlinger's 1953 estimate receives support from the figures quoted by Schindler, bearing in mind his caveat as to their being exaggerated.

Schindler's estimate of the number of Jews killed by November 1943, when grossed up, therefore contradicts the second major thesis of the "Holocaust" concept, which is that the total number of victims must be six million or very close to it.


I'm looking at figure 3.75 million by Nov 43 and then adding another knowned 400,000. To me figure of 6 million seems very attainable by the end end of the war especially due to decreasing food supplies and an increase in Nazi /SS efforts to get rid of as many Jews as possible before the end came. This totally destroys this assumption of:
By November 1943, most of the major episodes of extermination had been concluded;
major episodes? I say the camps ran at increasing death rates after Nov 43.

What is the total? I would say around 5.75 million, Having worked in Washington at the Census Bureau as a Statistician I know the problems and errors of counting "people", when you add in the factors of a clannish group, different language, chaos of war , destruction of records, third world communications in eastern europe, it is no wonder that people can dispute the figures in either direction. Why people do want to increase or decrease a reasonable estimate is beyond me, because the real figure will never be known and as it stands a figure of 5-6 million is a big pile of bodies and must surely rank as an atrocity.

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Post by Caldric » 23 Jul 2003 17:34

ChristopherPerrien wrote:This kind of stuff is what "personalizes" these arguements. Why should someone's personal position matter, past posts?, or other things have to do with the context of the topic we are talking at this time.
Because after almost 2 years people tend to have personalities on the forum, old arguments old dislikes of each other. I think he wanted to clarify what you were saying, hardly some personal attack.

How can we even possibly discuss this issue without understanding where the person is coming from on a personal level? If that were the case I would just read books.

You must admit your first post says you agree with the Himmler statement. I think clarification was in order.

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Re: 1943: Schindler said "No general order to extermina

Post by Sam H. » 24 Jul 2003 03:03

michael mills wrote:The introduction to the book "Das Letzte Kapitel", by two German leftist historians Goetz Aly and Christian Gerlach, contain some interesting excerpts from a document dating from November 1943.

This document records a meeting in Budapest between two Hungarian Zionist leaders, Rezsoe Kasztner and Samuel Springmann, with a visiting Austrian industrialist, identified only as "Herr X". From the details given about "Herr X", Aly and Gerlach conclude that he is none other than the well-known Oskar Schindler
I am relatively new to posting in the Holocaust and Warcrimes section. However, I have to tell you that Xanthro seems very credible when he labels Michael Mills as a Holocaust denier and jew hater.

The intorduction above states that a conclusion is made that Oskar Schindler is the Austrian industrialist "Herr X" - however, in every subsequent post Michael Mills labels Schindler as the source, no doubt would be left in the readers mind if he only read each post as a stand alone item.

Would it not be more accurate and honest to simpley state "Schindler allegedly" or "the individual believed to be Schindler stated ..."? Taking the posts as written gives the false impression that the sources is undoubted and credible, which is admittadly not the case.

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