Concentration camps

pennywise · Post by **pennywise** » 31 Jul 2003 04:55

I have a map of concentracion camps, but I'm not sure is it full.

RACPISA · Post by **RACPISA** » 03 Aug 2003 03:42

Did you make that yourself? It's pretty good.
Maybe you could also include some of the large transit camps, like Drancy.

Galicia · Post by **Galicia** » 03 Aug 2003 05:19

Sorry,

Could someone explain the difference between Concentration and Death Camps to me?

RACPISA · Post by **RACPISA** » 03 Aug 2003 16:12

Galicia wrote:Sorry,

Could someone explain the difference between Concentration and Death Camps to me?

I asked about that a little while ago, and here is the response I got:

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=25042

Lucius Felix Silla · Post by **Lucius Felix Silla** » 03 Aug 2003 21:53

I see that in the map, polish camp Majdanek was classified as "Death camp".
But according to noted holocaust historian Yitzhak Arad, "there were five DEATH CAMPS [ capital mine]: Auschwitz-Birkenau, Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka" (see Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka. The Operation Reinhard Death Camps. Bloomington: Indiana University Press, preface p.VII). And all in all, also Hilberg seem have some doubts.
Perhaps, also the distinction between Death Camps and Concentration Camps proposed here and in the link, is for me not too clear.

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David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 03 Aug 2003 22:11

Lucius Felix Silla

(1) Was Arad just talking about camps that participated in "Aktion Reinhard"?

(2) When you say "Hilberg seem have some doubts," what do you mean?

(3) When you say "the distinction between Death Camps and Concentration Camps proposed here and in the link, is for me not too clear," what is unclear?

Lucius Felix Silla · Post by **Lucius Felix Silla** » 04 Aug 2003 12:04

Dear Mr. David Thompson,

I reply to Your questions.

1) Is true that the book by Y. Arad discuss primarily the Aktion Reinhard (in reality Aktion Reinhardt) camps (i.e. Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec), but Arad have clearly specified in his preface to his work that, i repeat, "There were five death camps: Auschwitz-Birkenau, Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka." So he stated that, in his opinion, Majdanek wasn't a death camp. Mainly because he discuss only the A.R. camps, this judgement (in the preface - i.e. where is normal discuss general topics - of 1999 papebound edition) have a general meaning. And this was reinforced by lines wrote by Arad immediately after: "Auschwitz-Birkenau was, simultaneously, also a concentration camp." So he excludes definitely that Majdanek was a death camp.

2) Raul Hilberg in his work "The Destruction of the European Jews" is very vague on the subject. In all 10-15 lines (very vague) were dedicated to the subject of the presence of gas chambers in Majdanek. He concludes that were presents three small gas chambers (whereas the Polish-Soviet Commission investigation committee in august 1944 speak of six gas chambers). In one of this, was employed exclusively HCN i.e. the Zyklon B, because (see the reference given by same Hilberg at p. 990 and n.45 at p. 1062 italian ed. rev. 1999 from or. rev.ed. 1985 NY, Holmes & Meier) he have seen that at Majdanek were supplied an unspecified amount of Zyklon B. In the two others gas chambers, according to Hilberg, were employed, alternatively, HCN and carbon monoxyde. None details about measurements, functioning et cetera of these gas chambers was given by Hilberg. In another work (Perpetrators, Victims, Bystanders, NY 1992) any reference to Majdanek was omitted by Hilberg.
All in all, i presume (i have specifically written "Hilberg seem [to me] have some doubts") that Hilberg have included Majdanek on list of the death camps (in chapter IX "The centers of extermination) more reliyng on secondary licterature, than for a personal investigation on this matter.

3) All is unclear: Manstein and Demonio in the posts at the link are of one horrible confusion.
Best regards
LFS

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 04 Aug 2003 15:38

Lucius Felix Silla -- Is the unclear point the distinction between concentration camps and "death camps," or the question of whether or not Majdanek should be categorized as a "death camp," or both?

If the unclear point is the distinction between concentration camps and "death camps," I don't think the Nazis themselves drew any distinction. The documents I've seen refer to concentration camps (Konzentrationslager - KL/KZ), forced labor camps (Zwangarbeitslager - ZAL) and labor education camps (Arbeitserziehungslager - AEL).

Wulpe · Post by **Wulpe** » 04 Aug 2003 18:13

Such distinctions are quite problematic if the definition isn´t included. In the map Mauthausen is classified as a concentration camp, although it had gas chambers.

Lucius Felix Silla · Post by **Lucius Felix Silla** » 04 Aug 2003 18:32

Dear Mr. David Thompson,

Both are unclear, in my judgement - naturally.

I known these categories of camps:
Konzentrationslager (subdivided in 3 categories, according to various tipology of prisoners)
Durchgangslager (i.e. transit camp).
Kriegsgefangenenlager (POW camp).
I think that only the subcamps, are called ArbeitsKommandos-

Majdanek, for example, was originally classified as Lublin Kriegsgefangenenlager and after was called Lublin Konzentrationslager.
Best Regards
LFS

Luca · Post by **Luca** » 05 Aug 2003 13:06

Lucius Felix Silla wrote:I see that in the map, polish camp Majdanek was classified as "Death camp".

Auschwitz, Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka was VL ,and some of these 5 no was only VL (Vernichtungslager = Extermination camp).
The so called Majdanek was KL (Konzentratonlager) ITS/49,51-CB/II-Bundes/77
Luca

Lucius Felix Silla · Post by **Lucius Felix Silla** » 05 Aug 2003 13:13

Dear Luca,

But the acronym VL is a post war invention. Never in one wartime german document anyone KL was mentioned or classified as VL.

Best Regards
LFS

Luca · Post by **Luca** » 05 Aug 2003 13:29

David Thompson wrote: If the unclear point is the distinction between concentration camps and "death camps," I don't think the Nazis themselves drew any distinction. The documents I've seen refer to concentration camps (Konzentrationslager - KL/KZ), forced labor camps (Zwangarbeitslager - ZAL) and labor education camps (Arbeitserziehungslager - AEL).

I want say that appare that the classification of the I.T.S. 1949 reduced the differences between the differents detention places to only 8 typs in total.
The classification of the R.S.H.A. in 1942 was 5 big categories and in 1 of these (the N.5, concern the Lager) was sub classificated 49 different typs of Lager.
Appare clear that the post war want generalze much the differences but , sincerly, appare a little bit strange say ..."I don't think the Nazis themselves drew any distinction. ...."infact in this very short and ,if i can permit, appoximative classification I.T.S. list of only 8 typs of detention places, we can note that 2 of these 8 are KL and VL, so appare that the post war make some differences,why You not?
Best Regards
Luca

demonio · Post by **demonio** » 05 Aug 2003 13:31

Luca wrote:
Lucius Felix Silla wrote:I see that in the map, polish camp Majdanek was classified as "Death camp".
Auschwitz, Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka was VL ,and some of these 5 no was only VL (Vernichtungslager = Extermination camp).
The so called Majdanek was KL (Konzentratonlager) ITS/49,51-CB/II-Bundes/77
Luca

Majdanek was a bit of both. And other camps had used Gas chambers on and off or made make shift ones for "experiments". This happened at Belsen.

Dan · Post by **Dan** » 05 Aug 2003 15:08

Majdanek was a bit of both. And other camps had used Gas chambers on and off or made make shift ones for "experiments". This happened at Belsen.

Where are you getting all this kind of information

Axis History Forum

Concentration camps

Concentration camps

Map

Helping Galicia