Son of Majdanek revisited

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chalutzim
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Post by chalutzim » 05 Aug 2003 17:37

Lucius Felix Silla wrote:(...) You write that at Majdanek was in function a gas chamber.
Proof and evidence for this statement?
It would be much more difficult if you asked for proof and evidence of Majdanek's recreative swimming pool built for the inmates:

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Ma ... nek02.html

Image

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Post by David Thompson » 05 Aug 2003 17:50

Lucius Felix Silla -- You asked: "You write that at Majdanek was in function a gas chamber. Proof and evidence for this statement?"

From the JuNSV website at:
http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/Dienstdeufr.htm

Justiz und NS-Verbrechen
Verfahren Lfd.Nr.852
Tatkomplex: NS-Gewaltverbrechen in Haftstätten, Massenvernichtungsverbrechen in Lagern
Angeklagte:
Böt., Hermine geb. Brü. Freispruch
May., Charlotte Karla geb. Wö. Freispruch
Schm., Ernst Heinrich Freispruch
S., Rosa geb. Re. Freispruch
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Düsseldorf 790419
Tatland: Polen
Tatort: HS KL Majdanek
Tatzeit: 4301-4404
Opfer: Juden, Häftlinge
Nationalität: Polnische, Sowjetische, unbekannt
Dienststelle: Haftstättenpersonal KL Majdanek
Verfahrensgegenstand: Selektion bei eintreffenden Häftlingstransporten, im Krankenrevier sowie auf dem Appellplatz. Einzelerschiessungen von Häftlingen. Vergasung von Kindern in zwei Aktionen

Veröffentlichung in Vorbereitung
Justiz und NS-Verbrechen
Verfahren Lfd.Nr.869
Tatkomplex: Massenvernichtungsverbrechen in Lagern, NS-Gewaltverbrechen in Haftstätten, Kriegsverbrechen
Angeklagte:
Ell., Thomas 3 Jahre
Gro., Heinrich Walter Gustav Freispruch
Hac., Hermann 10 Jahre
Läc., Hildegard Martha Luise 12 Jahre
Lau., Emil Josef 8 Jahre
Pet., Fritz Heinrich 4 Jahre
Ryan geb. Braunsteiner, Hermine lebenslänglich
Stri., Arnold Georg 3½ Jahre
Vil., Heinz Hermann Karl 6 Jahre
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Düsseldorf 810630
Tatland: Polen
Tatort: HS KL Majdanek
Tatzeit: 41-44
Opfer: Juden, Häftlinge, Kriegsgefangene
Nationalität: Polnische, Deutsche, Griechische, Sowjetische, unbekannt
Dienststelle: Haftstättenpersonal KL Majdanek
Verfahrensgegenstand: Tötung von 200-400 seuchenkranken Häftlingen ('Fleckfieberaktion'). Selektion und anschliessende Vergasung von mindestens 1000 arbeitsunfähigen Jüdinnen sowie von Überlebenden des Warschauer Ghettoaufstandes. Vergasung von insgesamt mindestens 200 jüdischen Kindern (teilweise mit ihren Müttern) in drei Aktionen. Tötung von mindestens 17.000 Juden, die in drei Gräben getrieben und dort, auf einander liegend, erschossen wurden (Aktion 'Erntefest'). Selektion und Erschiessung von 3000 vom SSPF Lublin zur Exekution eingelieferten Juden. Erschiessung von 42 sowjetischen Kriegsgefangenen, nachdem 86 Kriegsgefangene die Flucht aus dem Lager gelungen war. Erschiessung von Gruppen von der Sipo eingelieferten, als Partisanen, Partisanenverdächtige oder sonstige Gegner des NS-Regimes verhafteten Zivilisten. Einzeltötungen von Häftlingen durch Erhängen, Erschiessen, Erwürgen, Vergasen, zu Tode prügeln und Ertränken in einer Vielzahl von Fällen

Veröffentlichung in Vorbereitung
Justiz und NS-Verbrechen
Verfahren Lfd.Nr.906
Tatkomplex: Massenvernichtungsverbrechen in Lagern
Angeklagte:
Höc., Karl Friedrich Gottlieb 4 Jahre
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Bielefeld 890503
Tatland: Polen
Tatort: HS KL Majdanek
Tatzeit: 4305-4405
Opfer: Juden, Häftlinge
Nationalität: Polnische, unbekannt
Dienststelle: Haftstättenpersonal KL Majdanek
Verfahrensgegenstand: Beteiligung an der Vergasung von - meist jüdischen - Häftlingen im KL Majdanek durch Beschaffung von mind. 3610 Kg des Gases Zyklon B bei der Hamburger Firma Tesch und Stabenow

Veröffentlichung in Vorbereitung

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Post by David Thompson » 05 Aug 2003 18:08

Lucius Felix Silla
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Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:06 pm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Mr. Chalutzim,

You show the interior of one delousing gas chamber equipped for use of Zyklon B, to my judgement.
Also the documentation present at Majdanek pertains exclusively to delousing cloths,objects and use of Zyklon B to this scope.

LFS
Best regards

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Wulpe
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Post by Wulpe » 05 Aug 2003 18:09

David Thompson wrote:
From the JuNSV website at:
http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/Dienstdeufr.htm

Justiz und NS-Verbrechen
Verfahren Lfd.Nr.852
Tatkomplex: NS-Gewaltverbrechen in Haftstätten, Massenvernichtungsverbrechen in Lagern
Angeklagte:
Böt., Hermine geb. Brü. Freispruch
May., Charlotte Karla geb. Wö. Freispruch
Schm., Ernst Heinrich Freispruch
S., Rosa geb. Re. Freispruch
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Düsseldorf 790419
Tatland: Polen
Tatort: HS KL Majdanek
Tatzeit: 4301-4404
Opfer: Juden, Häftlinge
Nationalität: Polnische, Sowjetische, unbekannt
Dienststelle: Haftstättenpersonal KL Majdanek
Verfahrensgegenstand: Selektion bei eintreffenden Häftlingstransporten, im Krankenrevier sowie auf dem Appellplatz. Einzelerschiessungen von Häftlingen. Vergasung von Kindern in zwei Aktionen
This case is no good example ... "Freispruch" means that all suspects were acquitted of the charges.

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Post by David Thompson » 05 Aug 2003 18:14

Wulpe -- That just means they weren't personally guilty. It doesn't mean that it didn't happen, particularly given the other two cases.

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chalutzim
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Post by chalutzim » 05 Aug 2003 18:21

Lucius Felix Silla wrote:You show the interior of one delousing gas chamber equipped for use of Zyklon B, to my judgement.
Also the documentation present at Majdanek pertains exclusively to delousing cloths,objects and use of Zyklon B to this scope.
The author supplies the usual bibliography in the end of his article:

Lublin-Majdanek Camp

http://cghs.dade.k12.fl.us/ib_holocaust ... k_camp.htm

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Post by David Thompson » 05 Aug 2003 18:24

Luca
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Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2003 2:37 pm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lucius Felix Silla wrote:

Majdanek, for example, was originally classified as Lublin Kriegsgefangenenlager and after was called Lublin Konzentrationslager.
Best Regards
LFS

Correct,
From November 1941 to 1943 the official name for the camp was Kriegsgefangenlager der Waffen-SS Lublin, and after that Konzentrationslager der Waffen-SS Lublin.
If i can permit a little precisation is no exact say that....."was originally classified as Lublin Kriegsgefangenenlager"......
infact initially the camp was named"Das Konzentrationlager der Waffen-SS Lublin".
In short and with my good english...Lublin was the most eastern of the Genralgouvernament city and cause he strategic po
sition a proyect of a new township for German was born, this include a center for up to 60000 SS-personel.For the creation was necessery a great number of workers as prisoners in KL.
20 21 June /1941 order of Himmler (that was in Lublin) for the costruction of a camp for 25000-50000 prisoners.
Work start but only 22 /9/41 the formal order was write.
Cause east front events a new order ask camp capacity for 50000 POWs the 1 October.
The same month the first 2000 Soviet POW arrive and take part in the costruction.
In december 1941 order for 100000 pow camp capacity.
Later, Himmler decide that Kreisgefangenlager Lublin will utilized for political prisoners too ,so the name change again.Infact when the situation in East front change the Soviet citizens increase the resistences and a great number of civiles from Russia,Bielorussia and Ukraine was arrested for suspect partisan activity and send to Lublin. In reality was a "recruit" for force work in Germany industry, the great part was womans.

NB= after the first name was named Kriegsgefangenlager Lublin so the name of this camp was during the time in reality 4.

Luca

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Post by Wulpe » 05 Aug 2003 18:29

David Thompson wrote:Wulpe -- That just means they weren't personally guilty. It doesn't mean that it didn't happen, particularly given the other two cases.
I know .. but you also know how the denial game is played. No need to provide ammunition.

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Lucius Felix Silla
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Post by Lucius Felix Silla » 05 Aug 2003 18:46

Dear Mr. Wulpe,

This is not a game.
Here everyone try to post informations, suggestions, documents and also other material.
After, the readers are free to judge the quality of informations posted.

Best regards
LFS

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Post by David Thompson » 05 Aug 2003 18:56

The interested reader can find more information on KL Majdanek on these threads:

Liberation of Majdanek 1944
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=18281

Majdanek death toll
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=6778

Fred Leuchter
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=15695

alsaco
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Post by alsaco » 05 Aug 2003 19:28

Lucius Felix Silla wrote:Dear Mr. Wulpe,

This is not a game.
Here everyone try to post informations, suggestions, documents and also other material.
After, the readers are free to judge the quality of informations posted.

Best regards
LFS
In fact Maïdaneck existed under many names, except Vernichtùngslager.

But it was one, as you can rapidly see when you refer to the places, towns and shtetles from where the deportees were sent, for theit last travel.

With Sobibor and Treblinka, Maïdanek was a killing place.
The technic used can be discussed, but the fact that people were sent there to be killed is proven.

But you mention a project to build up in Lublin a new town for Germans. It ay be interesting to know the source of this information. I have not found any mention of this plan in any history of the town or in reports on the General Government.
Thank you for your help in this field of research.

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Lucius Felix Silla
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Post by Lucius Felix Silla » 05 Aug 2003 19:53

Dear Mr. David Thompson,

I appreciate very much Your suggestions.
But, very hardly, one can think that the verdict of Düsseldorf process (see Your reference) is a proof. The problem with this very interesting material is that we known only the judgement, but not the arguments and proofs or the transcripts of the trial.

For now i have only see one photo of one local which have on the walls the typical pigment of an extensive use of Zyklon B, with any probability for delousing scope.

Concerning this local the german documentation is quite clear.

On June 19, 1942, SS-Sturmbannführer Lenzer, who was head of the Central Building Inspection Office of the SS-WVHA, forwarded a request dated May 27 from Office BII of the SS-WVHA, to the Building Inspection of the Waffen-SS and Police of the General Gouvernement regarding the construction of a delousing installation for the dressing building in Lublin "according to the System of disinfestation with hydrocyanic acid".

On July 10, 1942, the director of the Central Building Administration sent all the administrative documentation to the Building Inspection of the Waffen-SS and Police of the General Gouvernement. The documentation included in particular: the initial assignment; the annotated report; the building designation A; the cost estimate; the camp plan scaled to 1:500, and the drawing of the disinfestation barracks. The cover letter states:


»Als Anlage wird nach Maßgabe der Anordnung vom 27. 6. 42 der Nachtrag zum Bauantrag zur Errichtung einer Entwesungsanlage als Bauwerk XII in der Pelz- und Bekleidungswerkstätte Lublin in Höhe von RM 70.00 mit der Bitte um Prüfung und Bereitstellung der Mittel und Rohstoffkontingente eingereicht. Bei der Kostenberechnung wurden die polnischen Unternehmerpreise zugrundegelegt«


"The supplement to the building application for the construction of a disinfestation installation as Building XII in the fur and garment workshops in Lublin for the sum of 70,000 RM (Reichsmark), with a request for approval and preparation of the means and raw material quotas is hereby enclosed in annex according to the scale of the order of 27 June 1942. The Polish entrepreneurial prices will be determined during the cost estimate."

Of the documentation accompanied by this letter, only the annotated report, as well as the cost estimate remain, which were both drawn up dated July 10, 1942, by the director of the Central Construction Administration. The first document, given here in its entirety, explains the purpose of the installation:

»Erläuterungsbericht

zur Errichtung einer Entwesungsanlage für die Pelz- und
Bekleidungswerkstätte Lublin.

Zur Entwesung aller ankommenden Pelz- und Kleidersachen soll im Bereich der Pelz- und Bekleidungswerkstätte Lublin eine Entwesungsanlage nach der vom SS-Wirtschaftsverwaltungs
hauptamt übersandten Zeichnung erbaut werden. Die Entwesungskammer soll, wie aus der beigefügten Zeichnung ersichtlich ist, massiv mit einer Eisenbetondecke errichtet werden. Über dieser Entlausungskammer muß noch ein sogenanntes Flugdach errichtet werden. Um die entwesten Sachen auslegen und lagern zu können, soll dieses Flugdach in einer Größe von 60,0 × 18,0 m hergestellt werden. Der Ofen sowie die übrige Apparatur wird durch das Amt BII zur Verfügung gestellt.

Alles übrige ist aus der Zeichnung zu ersehen«



"Explanatory Report
on the Construction of a Disinfestation Installation
for the Fur and Garment Factories at Lublin.

A disinfestation installation for the disinfestation of all incoming fur and garment materials is to be built according to the plan forwarded from the SS Wirtschafts-Verwaltungshauptampt. The disinfestation chamber, as may be seen from the enclosed diagram, will be built in a very solid manner with a reinforced concrete ceiling. A so-called landing deck will furthermore be built above this delousing chamber. The landing deck is to cover a surface area of 60.0 × 18.0 m in order to lay out and store disinfested materials. The oven, as well as other devices, will be made available by the BII Office.

All other matters are to be guided by the diagram."

(see Archivum Panstwowego Muzeum na Majdanku)

About the so called "Leuchter Rapport" few words.

He can be also wrong, but isn't good to publish here the part concerning Majdanek, so everyone can have a personal opinion about this much discussed document?

Best regards
LFS

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Post by David Thompson » 05 Aug 2003 23:31

Lucius Felix Silla -- You asked chalutzim
You write that at Majdanek was in function a gas chamber.
Proof and evidence for this statement?
In addition to the proof chalutzim offered, I gave references to three West German trials involving charges of fatal gassings of inmates at KL Majadanek.

You responded:
But, very hardly, one can think that the verdict of Düsseldorf process (see Your reference) is a proof. The problem with this very interesting material is that we known only the judgement, but not the arguments and proofs or the transcripts of the trial.
You asked for proof of a functioning gas chamber at Majdanek. I showed you that two West German courts (one at Duesseldorf and one at Bielefeld) have convicted persons of the execution of prisoners by gassing at Majdanek. Now you want the "arguments and proofs or the transcripts of the trial."

Well, I'm content with the court judgments. They establish the fact of lethal gassings at Majdanek. Unless someone can show that there's something definitely wrong with the judicial findings of fact, I consider the matter as factually proven. Why would anyone want to re-prove to you what has already been established for the rest of the world?

If you need more proof for your personal purposes, check it out for yourself. You're the one who is unconvinced, and you are several thousand miles closer to the German court archives than I am.

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Post by Luca » 06 Aug 2003 00:52

alsaco wrote:
Lucius Felix Silla wrote:Dear Mr. Wulpe,

This is not a game.
Here everyone try to post informations, suggestions, documents and also other material.
After, the readers are free to judge the quality of informations posted.

Best regards
LFS
In fact Maïdaneck existed under many names, except Vernichtùngslager.

But it was one, as you can rapidly see when you refer to the places, towns and shtetles from where the deportees were sent, for theit last travel.

With Sobibor and Treblinka, Maïdanek was a killing place.
The technic used can be discussed, but the fact that people were sent there to be killed is proven.

But you mention a project to build up in Lublin a new town for Germans. It ay be interesting to know the source of this information. I have not found any mention of this plan in any history of the town or in reports on the General Government.
Thank you for your help in this field of research.
Precious alsaco,
i m ,as usually , very drunk, but sincerly, for can i remember, was me that post information concern the original proyect concern the camp in subject.
So , please (is my poor opinion), all We very happy if in the next times, You can take some of Your precious time for send direct question that, maybe, i hope, can help Us

with Respect
Luca

Luca
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Post by Luca » 06 Aug 2003 01:45

alsaco wrote:
Lucius Felix Silla wrote:Dear Mr. Wulpe,

This is not a game.
Here everyone try to post informations, suggestions, documents and also other material.
After, the readers are free to judge the quality of informations posted.

Best regards
LFS
In fact Maïdaneck existed under many names, except Vernichtùngslager.
Dear alsaco,
for the poor that i can know, the definiiton of the so called Majdanek was only of 2 typs of Lager,and 4 was the names of the camp.
Concern the usually name i want say :
...."Approximately 5 Km east of the city of Lublin,there was a sparsely populated area called Kosminek.This, and parts of the nearby suburbs,Abramowice and Kalinowka,were chosen and changed to a camp of 516 hectare (1 ah = 2.47 acres).To the north, this area bordered the township Majdan Tatarski from which the camp name Majdanek was derived."...
Luca

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