This inquiry was written for the Old Norse Net (ONN) newsgroup, so there is some emphasis on much older history and archaeology. However, after a couple of days there with no replies, I believe this forum may be visited by folks more knowledgeable about this topic.
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Greetings from Iceland.
I am currently probing historic influences on 20th century conceptions of a
supposedly ancient "Black Sun/Schwarze Sonne" legend. If this idea existed historically, it was likely ingrained in some religious beliefs.
What is it and where does it come from? Today, the only English language
materials refering to a Northern European black sun belief will refer to
German Occult inventions which developed out of Theosophy and the post-
World War I "Volkisch" movement. Pages on the net will likely also include
(mis)information on Atlantis, Telepathy and the Holy Grail, reading much
stranger than any Tolkien works.
Not being fluent in German, I will include here a link and poor citation
from a machine translantion as an introduction to this legend/myth.
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Translated by http://www.worldlingo.com from
http://home.t-online.de/home/saxmut/bilbo1.htm
Der >Santur The Sandaer is seen as a burned out sun, which circles today
still outside of the ecliptic around the earth. This Sandaer was to be
observed at present Homers still daily in the sky and in the Odysse and the
Ilias as > the Hochwandelnde< was designated.
In > the Brisigna Halsbandmythe< Emil Ruediger the following considerations
follows. Before hundredthousands of years this sun represented the center
of our solar system. Before this sun already two different are to have
taken the place, but that is not noticed only at the edge and for the
further views of importance. One proceeds from the binaryistic system,
whereby an existing strength always causes a counter acting force.
(therefore an active and a passive sun) the active one, in our case the
golden sun, which > Aitharteilchen< ejects and which passive ones, which
determines and absorbs the frequency and the wavelength of these
energies. The whole one must introduce oneself simplified approximately
like a sanduhr. As logical conclusion after a certain period the active
sun will have it no more energy and takes place a pole reversal of the
suns. The passive sun becomes active. Now a fight of the sun for the
center of the solar system begins, since the active sun turns still around
the passive one. Thus it comes to a stop of the masses and a following
turbulence of the solar system.
-end quote-
Enjoy the silly translation. Does it suggest a connection with "Saturday?"
Himmler of the SS was fascinated by this sort of fantasy (?) and there is a
12-spoked sunwheel design in the north tower floor of his castle at
Wewelsburg. For a look at this symbol:
http://www.ruedigersuenner.de/Schwarze%20Sonne
On the tourist information signs at Wewelsburg there is the suggestion that
this emblem was inspired by decorative disks worn by European women in pre-Christian times. Recent correspondence suggests that the disks referred to are "bronce fibula" or "bronze fibeln" in German. Has anyone seen European fibulæ which resemble this 12-spoked design or any sunwheel for that matter? Are there other circular adornments worn by women in these old times which may bear anything resembling a sun symbol?
It is questionable whether this emblem represented a "black sun" myth
revived by the Nazis. It would be interesting if someone familiar with
German research of the 1930s could suggest sources either confirming or
denying this rumour.
One which I do not have access to, but would like to make of record here,
is the following journal:
Title: Germania.
Other Titles: Germania (Berlin)
Publisher: Berlin [etc.] W. de Gruyter [etc.]
Description: v. ill., plates, plans, diagrs. 28 cm.
Publishing history: 1. -Jahrg.; 1917-
Current frequency: Frequency varies
Notes: "Anzeiger der Römisch-Germanischen Kommission des Deutschen
Archäologischen Instituts."
Vol. 27, no. 3/4, July/Oct. 1943, published 1949; v. 28, covering 1944-50,
published 1950.
Vols. 1-36, 1917-1958. 1v.
Language: German
Subjects: Germany--Antiquities, Roman.
Other entries: Deutsches Archäologisches Institut. Römisch-Germanische
Kommission
Print Access: All, All UC, UCB, UCI, UCLA, UCSB, SRLF, GETTY, Greater Bay
Area, Greater Los Angeles
It might also be worthy of note that the term "black sun" is generally
associated with an eclipse. Was there special significance attributed to
eclipses in old times, and would there be evidence of this in
archaeological finds?
I am most interested in visual materials/emblems associated with this lore,
or what has been misconstrued as such.
Kveðja!
Wewelsburg sigil
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Vance Pollock
- Member
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- Location: Asheville, NC
Turbund Sturmwerk/Frau Gabriele Winckler-Dechends-Interview
I've found this interview with a disciple of Wiligut. This is what she has to say:
Link: http://www.myway.de/secretlab/dturbu57.htm#dt57kopfDie Bodenornamentik im Gruppenführersaal der Wewelsburg wird mitunter als Symbol einer zwölfstrahligen "Schwarzen Sonne" (auch "Sandär" oder "Santur") gedeutet. Mit dem Mythos der "Schwarzen Sonne", die - längst erkaltet - neben der aktiven Sonne SOL und der passiven/unsichtbaren Sonne SUN existiere, sollen noch die Skalden des Mittelalters vertraut gewesen sein. Wiligut scheint entsprechende Informationen an Emil Rüdiger weitergegeben zu haben. Können Sie dazu etwas sagen? Könnte Himmler sich mit derlei Fragen beschäftigt haben? Ist es möglich, daß die Bodenornamentik der Wewelsburg in diesem Sinne zu verstehen ist?
Ein konkreter Zusammenhang der "Schwarzen Sonne" mit der Ornamentik des Gruppenführersaales erscheint mir ziemlich unwahrscheinlich. Ich habe bis vor kurzem nie etwas von einer "Schwarzen Sonne" gehört, halte diese Theorie für ziemlich eigenartig, um nicht zu sagen "nebulös". Wenn die Anregung dazu vom Oberst stammen sollte, würde ich eher sagen, daß die "12" mit den Tierkreiszeichen und auch anderen Bedeutungen dieser "heiligen" Zahl korrespondiert; man denke nur an den alten Nachtwächtersang, z.B. "Zwölf der Jünger blieben treu...", oder an ägyptische Zahlenmythologie, mit der sich Emma Schiller (damals noch Emma Delbrück), die mit meiner Mutter und dem Oberst befreundet war, lange beschäftigte. Dazu eine Begebenheit, die in diesem Zusammenhang direkt Bedeutung bekommt: Wir machten damals mit dem Oberst eine Wanderung auf den Hohentwiel, für den sich der Oberst sehr interessierte, weil es dort eine Reihe vorgeschichtlicher Fundstellen gab. Auf dem Aufstiegsweg fand ich einen auffallenden, halbkreisförmigen Stein, etwa 12 cm breit, 9 cm hoch und 2cm dick. Da dieser offensichtlich Zeichen trug, wies mich der Oberst an, ihn mitzunehmen. Zu Hause habe ich den Stein gereinigt und mit Vaseline "eingefettet" - und da kamen ganz deutlich, gleichmäßig über das Halbrund verteilt, zwölf kleine Kreise hervor, die der Oberst ganz fasziniert als Tierkreiszeichen deutete. Er bat mich, ihm den Stein zu schenken - was ich natürlich tat, auch wenn es mir später leid tat, ihn nicht mehr zu besitzen.
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Vance Pollock
- Member
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- Location: Asheville, NC
Transl. of German intvw above + Alemanni note
The interview offered in response above certainly addresses my query. For the benefit of those who aren´t lucky enough to read German, myself included, I am pasting in another machine translation.
At the bottom there is another note concerning the design being taken from an old German tribal "decoration." I found some information on the web concerning this Alemanni tribe, who gave the Alsace region of France the dialect still in use today and are the ancestors of folks from Liechtenstein. Also, in French, Germans are still referred to as Allemand.
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Translation from http://www.worldlingo.com
The soil ornamental art in the group leader hall of the Wewelsburg is interpreted every now and then as symbol of a zwoelfstrahligen "black sun" (also "Sandaer" or "Santur"). With the myth of the "black sun", which - long cooled off - exists beside the active sun SOL and the passive/invisible sun SUN, still the Skalden of the Middle Ages is to have been familiar. Wiligut seems to have passed appropriate information on at Emil Ruediger. Can you say to it somewhat? Could Himmler have concerned itself with such asking? Is it possible that the soil ornamental art of the Wewelsburg in this sense is to be understood?
A concrete connection of the "black sun" with the ornamental art of the group leader hall appears to me rather improbably. I heard, consider until recently never something of a "black sun" this theory rather strange not to say over "nebuloes". If the suggestion should come in addition from the Colonel, I would say rather that the "12" with the tierkreiszeichen and also different meanings corresponds to this "holy" number; one thinks only of the old night watchman-sang, z. B. "twelve of the young remained faithful. ..", or to Egyptian number mythology, with itself the Emma Schiller (at that time still Emma Delbrueck), which with my nut/mother and the Colonel was friendly, for a long time employed. In addition an occurence, which gets meaning in this connection directly: We made at that time with the Colonel a migration on the Hohentwiel, in which the Colonel was interested much, because there was a number of before-historical places of discovery there. On the ascent way I found a remarkable, semicircular stone, to about 12 cm, broad 9 cm high and 2cm thickly. Since this carried obviously indications, the Colonel instructed me to carry him forward. At home I cleaned and with vaseline "greased" the stone - and there completely clearly, evenly over the semicircular distributed, twelve small circles came out, which the Colonel interpreted completely fascinated as tierkreiszeichen. He asked me to give him the stone - which I naturally did, even if it did to me late wrong, it no more to possess.
---
from http://www.europaltd.com
This design is commonly known as the Black Sun. Notice the three swastikas that it makes, as the symbol is rotated… We believe that the first represents ARISING. The second represents BEING. The third represents PASSING AWAY TO A NEW ARISING... More scholarly folk believe that it was derived from Alemannic ornamental discs from the fifth century CE. Regardless, it has achieved its widespread notoriety because it was inlaid in the marble flooring of the main hall at the Wewelsburg Castle in Germany, and has many myths surrounding it in German occult circles…
At the bottom there is another note concerning the design being taken from an old German tribal "decoration." I found some information on the web concerning this Alemanni tribe, who gave the Alsace region of France the dialect still in use today and are the ancestors of folks from Liechtenstein. Also, in French, Germans are still referred to as Allemand.
---
Translation from http://www.worldlingo.com
The soil ornamental art in the group leader hall of the Wewelsburg is interpreted every now and then as symbol of a zwoelfstrahligen "black sun" (also "Sandaer" or "Santur"). With the myth of the "black sun", which - long cooled off - exists beside the active sun SOL and the passive/invisible sun SUN, still the Skalden of the Middle Ages is to have been familiar. Wiligut seems to have passed appropriate information on at Emil Ruediger. Can you say to it somewhat? Could Himmler have concerned itself with such asking? Is it possible that the soil ornamental art of the Wewelsburg in this sense is to be understood?
A concrete connection of the "black sun" with the ornamental art of the group leader hall appears to me rather improbably. I heard, consider until recently never something of a "black sun" this theory rather strange not to say over "nebuloes". If the suggestion should come in addition from the Colonel, I would say rather that the "12" with the tierkreiszeichen and also different meanings corresponds to this "holy" number; one thinks only of the old night watchman-sang, z. B. "twelve of the young remained faithful. ..", or to Egyptian number mythology, with itself the Emma Schiller (at that time still Emma Delbrueck), which with my nut/mother and the Colonel was friendly, for a long time employed. In addition an occurence, which gets meaning in this connection directly: We made at that time with the Colonel a migration on the Hohentwiel, in which the Colonel was interested much, because there was a number of before-historical places of discovery there. On the ascent way I found a remarkable, semicircular stone, to about 12 cm, broad 9 cm high and 2cm thickly. Since this carried obviously indications, the Colonel instructed me to carry him forward. At home I cleaned and with vaseline "greased" the stone - and there completely clearly, evenly over the semicircular distributed, twelve small circles came out, which the Colonel interpreted completely fascinated as tierkreiszeichen. He asked me to give him the stone - which I naturally did, even if it did to me late wrong, it no more to possess.
---
from http://www.europaltd.com
This design is commonly known as the Black Sun. Notice the three swastikas that it makes, as the symbol is rotated… We believe that the first represents ARISING. The second represents BEING. The third represents PASSING AWAY TO A NEW ARISING... More scholarly folk believe that it was derived from Alemannic ornamental discs from the fifth century CE. Regardless, it has achieved its widespread notoriety because it was inlaid in the marble flooring of the main hall at the Wewelsburg Castle in Germany, and has many myths surrounding it in German occult circles…
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Atomvinter
- Member
- Posts: 10
- Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 19:44
- Location: Långtbortistan
Iceland
This is of topic 
but i saw that Vance Pollock came from iceland.... and I want to now if he now anything about the icelandic nationalsocialistic organisations before 1945. my be some tips about books or internet sites 
............. 
but i saw that Vance Pollock came from iceland.... and I want to now if he now anything about the icelandic nationalsocialistic organisations before 1945. my be some tips about books or internet sites ............. -
Vance Pollock
- Member
- Posts: 127
- Joined: 16 May 2002, 21:03
- Location: Asheville, NC
Icelandic Nazis
There are relatively few sources for information on the Icelandic National Socialists in languages other than Icelandic.
One website includes much information on antisemitism with a lot of references to pre-WWII nationalism and the like.
http://notendur.centrum.is/~snorrigb/jews.htm
The best book, though in Icelandic, includes plenty of references and a number of interesting photographs. This is: Hrafn Jökulsson & Illugi Jökulsson, Íslenskir nasistar, Tákn Rv. 1988.
The Icelanders are notorious for publishing every bit of information they can possibly get their hands on, but only in their native tongue, the language of 283,000 people.
While I am making this list I might also mention:
Berlínar-blús : íslenskir meðreiðarsveinar og fórnarlömb þýskra nasista / Ásgeir Guðmundsson. - Reykjavík : Bókaútg. Skjaldborg, 1996.
ISBN 9979-57339-2
This title includes information on Icelanders who were active Nazis, to include the son of the first president of Iceland, who was a decorated SS man. Lots of photographs.
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Þór Whitehead: Íslandsævintýri Himmlers 1935-1937. Reykjavík (1988).
This title concerns SS interest in Iceland before the war.
---
Kurt Singer. DUEL FOR THE NORTHLAND, 1943. Details Nazi and Allied espionage in Iceland, Greenland and Scandinavia during WWII. 212 pg. This one contemporary and in English, a bit of an unreliable smear book, but still might make interesting reading.
One website includes much information on antisemitism with a lot of references to pre-WWII nationalism and the like.
http://notendur.centrum.is/~snorrigb/jews.htm
The best book, though in Icelandic, includes plenty of references and a number of interesting photographs. This is: Hrafn Jökulsson & Illugi Jökulsson, Íslenskir nasistar, Tákn Rv. 1988.
The Icelanders are notorious for publishing every bit of information they can possibly get their hands on, but only in their native tongue, the language of 283,000 people.
While I am making this list I might also mention:
Berlínar-blús : íslenskir meðreiðarsveinar og fórnarlömb þýskra nasista / Ásgeir Guðmundsson. - Reykjavík : Bókaútg. Skjaldborg, 1996.
ISBN 9979-57339-2
This title includes information on Icelanders who were active Nazis, to include the son of the first president of Iceland, who was a decorated SS man. Lots of photographs.
---
Þór Whitehead: Íslandsævintýri Himmlers 1935-1937. Reykjavík (1988).
This title concerns SS interest in Iceland before the war.
---
Kurt Singer. DUEL FOR THE NORTHLAND, 1943. Details Nazi and Allied espionage in Iceland, Greenland and Scandinavia during WWII. 212 pg. This one contemporary and in English, a bit of an unreliable smear book, but still might make interesting reading.
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Richard Behemoth
- New member
- Posts: 1
- Joined: 21 May 2002, 19:12
- Location: Albion
- Contact:
Black Sun
Another known theory is the journey of the sun into the underworld in which it becomes darkened (this corresponds
loosely to the Hollow Earth theory developed later).
The swallowing of the Sun at Raganrok by the Fenris
Wolf would also give this a more lasting aspect,
as would the Three Winters before the rebirth of the world.
Cosmologically, Every galaxy has its own Black Whole without which it would not exist and into which it will dissolve.
loosely to the Hollow Earth theory developed later).
The swallowing of the Sun at Raganrok by the Fenris
Wolf would also give this a more lasting aspect,
as would the Three Winters before the rebirth of the world.
Cosmologically, Every galaxy has its own Black Whole without which it would not exist and into which it will dissolve.
'The meek may inherit the Earth but the bounty of Heaven belongs to the Proud'
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Vance Pollock
- Member
- Posts: 127
- Joined: 16 May 2002, 21:03
- Location: Asheville, NC
e-mail feedback from a friend...
I wanted to tell you a bit about the Wewelsburg
wheel/Black Sun since you had mentioned it in one of
your recent messages. For years I had heard two
conflicting theories about it: one was the Black Sun
idea, the other was that it was simply a series of
interlocking swastikas. Then, just a few months ago,
Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke (the same guy who wrote "The
Occult Roots of Nazism" about the Ariosophists and the
Devi bio) published a book entitled "Black Sun," which
is a survey of neo-fascist esotericism. The book is
not without its problems, but it's still a useful
compendium of information. I had hoped that it would
put the Black Sun issue at rest for me, but instead it
has led me to conclude that there is NO agreement as
to just what the hell it is. The idea of it being a
dead star circling the Sun as discussed in your forum
is one possibility that is mentioned. But also in the
book, G-C cites sources which suggest that it was the
sign of SS "Black Sun" Satanists who were in conflict
with Luciferic, solar elements of the SS; a symbol for
the mass of energy which in turn represented the
potential energy of the universe prior to, or during
the Big Bang; an invisible energy source which holds
sway at the center of our galaxy; an alchemical symbol
used to represent the invisible energies of the world
by esoteric elements of the SS who were seeking to
unite all of the world's non-Hebrew traditions
together for a final showdown with the Jews and
Christians; a recreation of decorative disks used by
the Merovingians during medieval times; the sign of
Agartha, a secret Himalayan realm which has become
embedded in world mythology; or a Gnostic Babylonian
symbol of divine energy which is accessible only by
initiates. Take your pick! G-C does manage to pinpoint
the first person to identify the Wewelsburg wheel with
the Black Sun: Russell McCloud, in his novel "Die
schwarze Sonne von Tashi Lhunpo."
The closest thing we have to a definitive answer seems
to be in something even more recent than G-C's book:
"The Secret King," an anthology of English
translations of Karl Wiligut's writings. Wiligut, as
you no doubt know, was Himmler's personal advisor on
esoteric matters, and it is believed that he devised
the Wewelsburg wheel. One of the appendices in "Secret
King" is a 1997 interview with Frau Gabriele
Winckler-Dechend, who was Wiligut's secretary for a
period during the mid-'30s. (see previous post, VP)
wheel/Black Sun since you had mentioned it in one of
your recent messages. For years I had heard two
conflicting theories about it: one was the Black Sun
idea, the other was that it was simply a series of
interlocking swastikas. Then, just a few months ago,
Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke (the same guy who wrote "The
Occult Roots of Nazism" about the Ariosophists and the
Devi bio) published a book entitled "Black Sun," which
is a survey of neo-fascist esotericism. The book is
not without its problems, but it's still a useful
compendium of information. I had hoped that it would
put the Black Sun issue at rest for me, but instead it
has led me to conclude that there is NO agreement as
to just what the hell it is. The idea of it being a
dead star circling the Sun as discussed in your forum
is one possibility that is mentioned. But also in the
book, G-C cites sources which suggest that it was the
sign of SS "Black Sun" Satanists who were in conflict
with Luciferic, solar elements of the SS; a symbol for
the mass of energy which in turn represented the
potential energy of the universe prior to, or during
the Big Bang; an invisible energy source which holds
sway at the center of our galaxy; an alchemical symbol
used to represent the invisible energies of the world
by esoteric elements of the SS who were seeking to
unite all of the world's non-Hebrew traditions
together for a final showdown with the Jews and
Christians; a recreation of decorative disks used by
the Merovingians during medieval times; the sign of
Agartha, a secret Himalayan realm which has become
embedded in world mythology; or a Gnostic Babylonian
symbol of divine energy which is accessible only by
initiates. Take your pick! G-C does manage to pinpoint
the first person to identify the Wewelsburg wheel with
the Black Sun: Russell McCloud, in his novel "Die
schwarze Sonne von Tashi Lhunpo."
The closest thing we have to a definitive answer seems
to be in something even more recent than G-C's book:
"The Secret King," an anthology of English
translations of Karl Wiligut's writings. Wiligut, as
you no doubt know, was Himmler's personal advisor on
esoteric matters, and it is believed that he devised
the Wewelsburg wheel. One of the appendices in "Secret
King" is a 1997 interview with Frau Gabriele
Winckler-Dechend, who was Wiligut's secretary for a
period during the mid-'30s. (see previous post, VP)
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Vance Pollock
- Member
- Posts: 127
- Joined: 16 May 2002, 21:03
- Location: Asheville, NC
Historical Sun Disks, the inspiration found?
Here is a very beautiful collection of sunwheels
forwarded to me by a friend; see his note below. Does
anyone now which book this could be? Any information
on the purpose of these discs is appreciated.
---
Attached is a scan of the kind Alemannic metal work
that probably inspired the Wewelsburg design.
Especially the wheel on the lower left hand corner.
This is from a book on Migration Era Germanic art
(copied it years ago and didn't write down the
title...).
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alemannic ... wheels.jpg
forwarded to me by a friend; see his note below. Does
anyone now which book this could be? Any information
on the purpose of these discs is appreciated.
---
Attached is a scan of the kind Alemannic metal work
that probably inspired the Wewelsburg design.
Especially the wheel on the lower left hand corner.
This is from a book on Migration Era Germanic art
(copied it years ago and didn't write down the
title...).
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alemannic ... wheels.jpg
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Vance Pollock
- Member
- Posts: 127
- Joined: 16 May 2002, 21:03
- Location: Asheville, NC
Corrected Pic link
The link to the sun wheels above is a members only file. At the time of posting I thought it was publically accesible. Here I have added the pic to another site. Sorry for the trouble.
http://www.villagephotos.com/pubimage2.asp?id_=358099
http://www.villagephotos.com/pubimage2.asp?id_=358099
- Attachments
-
- sunwheels.jpg (71.68 KiB) Viewed 3082 times
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Vance Pollock
- Member
- Posts: 127
- Joined: 16 May 2002, 21:03
- Location: Asheville, NC
Sun Wheel Gallery
I have posted all the pics of Alemannic zierscheiben / adornment
disks I could put my hands on and included with each a short yet
informative caption. The link to the gallery is:
http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse. ... cted=54466
As my research continues, please keep the discussion going here. All the help so far is much appreciated!
disks I could put my hands on and included with each a short yet
informative caption. The link to the gallery is:
http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse. ... cted=54466
As my research continues, please keep the discussion going here. All the help so far is much appreciated!
-
Vance Pollock
- Member
- Posts: 127
- Joined: 16 May 2002, 21:03
- Location: Asheville, NC
Will a fresh consideration bring anything new?
This one has passed on for some time, but I am still interested in fresh considerations. Perhaps you missed it the first go round. More feedback appreciated. Vance