Let's build Panzer-Division "Müncheberg" !

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David C. Clarke
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Nice Work Gentlemen!

Post by David C. Clarke » 18 May 2002 14:26

Hi Andy, Hi Jeff--nice work, both of you!
Andy, yes I have "Tragedy of the Faithful", but I had forgotten the references to Muncheberg. This is exactly the type of information I was looking for, the bits and pieces that have to be glued together into a narrative. You're doing Great!

Jeff, thanks for confirming my opinion of Federl. I've never been that knowledgable in terms of awards and only bought Federl because of the huge gap in my library where this topic is concerned. So I really appreciate your aid on this. I seem to vaguely recall that Mummert won the Oak Leaves as well, can you confirm this? I must say though that your contributions have been very enlightening and very welcome.

So, I wanted to thank you both. It's about 9:30 A.M. here in New Jersey, I deesperately need some coffee, so I'll talk to you soon. Very Best Regards, David :D :D :D

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JC
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Mummert

Post by JC » 18 May 2002 14:59

Hello David,

Thanks for the kind words. Awards aren't my speciality either, but I do focus on leaders of the panzerwaffe and try to gather all the info that I can about them. Werner Mummert did indeed receive the Oakleaves... and the Swords to the Knights Cross! Oakleaves on March 20, 1944 as Oberstleutnant d.R. and commander of Panzergrenadierregiment 103 of the 14th Panzerdivision, and Swords on October 23, 1944 as Oberst d.R. in the same capacity.

BR.......Jeff

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David C. Clarke
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Incredible Jeff!

Post by David C. Clarke » 18 May 2002 16:19

It is really incredible, when you think about it, that a soldier of Mummert's stature is virtually unknown! Thanks Jeff for the information, it looks like I'll have to find a 14th Panzer unit history. It just seems really weird that a German officer wins the Oakleaves and the Swords to the Knight's Cross and remains virtually unknown! Very Best Regards, David 8O

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David C. Clarke
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TO&E Information

Post by David C. Clarke » 18 May 2002 23:14

Hi Guys, the ever-generous Forrest Opper sent this Division strength information to me today:


"The post on Pz.D. Müncheberg on the 3.R Forum prompted me to email you. I found one other thing to add:

Übersicht über Gliederung u. Kampfkraft der Div.: 9. Armee
T78-413, Frame 1194
Stand: 7.Apr.45
Gen.St.d.H./Op.Abt. III/Nr 35 579/45 gKdos.

H.Gr. Weichsel
9. Armee
----------Ob.: Gen.d.Inf. Busse
----------Chef: Oberst Hölz
----------Ia: Obstlt. Hoefer
Armee-Reserve
-----XXXIX. Pz.K.
---------------Kom.Gen.: Gen.d.Pz.Tr. Decker
---------------Chef: Oberst Konrad Kühlein
---------------Ia: Maj. Gerhard Scharnhorst
----------Pz.Div. ‘Müncheberg’
--------------------Kdr.: Genmaj. Mummert
--------------------Ia: Maj. Thoma
--------------------Kampfwert: IV; - % besp./ 85% mot.
--------------------one btl.: 300-400
--------------------three btle.: je 200-300
--------------------FEB: 200-300; Pi.Btl.: -
--------------------Art.: le.bttrn.: (3 lost)
--------------------------s.bttrn.: -
--------------------Pz./StuG: 7 StuG., one Pz.Jg.(Sfl.), 8 Mk IV, 19 Mk. V
--------------------s.PaK:


I wanted to take this opportunity to personally and publicly thank Forrest, who has also sent other important information that I intend to post on this Thread. Very Best Regards, David :D :D :D

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Post by Andy H » 19 May 2002 10:12

Hi David

Mummert is mentioned only once in Beevor's new book on Berlin, but it tells something of the man even at this stage of the war.

As were all aware they were many execution squads roaming Berlin in April'45, handing out swift 'Justice' to everyone. However Mummert ordered the execution squads out of the Muncheburg area of op's in Berlin, less the executioners became the executed. Good on him.

:D Andy from the Shire

Mark V.
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Mummert

Post by Mark V. » 19 May 2002 12:07

Well Jeff you're probably right, but there is still a possibility that Mummert was awarded KC for his actions with Der Fuhrer Regiment and it wasn't that uncommon to receive KC that late after it's recommendation.
By the way here is the excrpt from the book:
» On recommendation of the commander of the »Der Fuhrer« Regiment the commander of the reconnaissance battalion, Major Mummert, was awarded the Knight's Cross for the heroic battle and actions of his men and for his own significant role in the defense of the regiment's sector.« (Weidinger, page 115)

Either way he certainlly made his name in the defense of Rzhew sector and the battles for »Russian wood«. It is also interested that only Otto Kumm (and maybe Mummert) received KC for his actions in DF defensive sector durig extremly hard battles at Rzhew and both were later holders of the KC with Oakleaves and Swords.


Regards
Mark

Timo
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Post by Timo » 19 May 2002 12:28

Generalmajor d.R Werner Mummert

* 31.03.1897 Lüttewitz/Sachsen
+ 28.01.1950 russ. Kgf.
Ritterkreuz am: 17.08.1942
als: Major der Reserve
Funktion: Kommandeur AufklAbt 256

429. Eichenlaub am: 20.03.1944 als Oberstleutnant der Reserve
Kommandeur PzGrenRgt 103
107. Schwerter am: 23.10.1944 als Oberst der Reserve
Kommandeur PzGrenRgt 103

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JC
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Mummert

Post by JC » 19 May 2002 13:36

Hello Mark V.,

You are right, it was not unheard of that decorations were awarded long after the action in which they were earned. It is also true that occasionally several events over a period of time were taken in agegrate to justify an award. It is interesting that (according to Mark Yerger's fine work: Waffen-SS Commanders), The commander of the 256 Inf. Div, wrote a letter personally to Himmler, praising Kumm's command and his personal bravery.

BR........Jeff

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David C. Clarke
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TO&E Statistical Bits

Post by David C. Clarke » 19 May 2002 22:34

Hi Guys, just dropped in to add a quick pair of TO&E statistics from Tony LeTissier's "Zhukov at the Oder".

Page 274:
Muncheberg Armored Strength April 13, 1945:
Pz. III--1
Pz. IV---2
Pz. V----21
Pz. VI---10
Pz IV (L)-1
Jagdpanzer IV--1


Page 273
Muncheberg Combatant Strength April 15, 1945:
1,986


This may well be the end of the "easy to find" statistics. I think we've done fairly well on the Division's organization, although there are still issues to iron out. Very Best Regards, David :D :D

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Re: Thanks Timo!

Post by Timo » 19 May 2002 22:58

Timo wrote:Well, for the moment I've contacted a good friend who owns a lot of weird, rare, unknown unit histories, many of them written by veterans. Often published in private on a very small scale, and sometimes nothing more then a bundle of xerox or even carbonpaper copies of the original. I hope he has something on Muncheberg or knows were to find it.

Cheers,
Timo


Here's his reply:
Müncheberg is mentioned in nearly every book dealing with the fightings on the Seelower Höhe. If I remember correctly the book of Tieke: "Das Ende zwischen Oder und Elbe" (Motorbuch-Verlag) is the one with the most eyewitness reports.


Nothing new, sorry.

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David C. Clarke
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Hi Timo

Post by David C. Clarke » 20 May 2002 00:03

Hi Timo, no need to apologize, certainly. Your own contributions to this thread have been very valuable.
If anything, I think your friend's reply validates our efforts here as we reconstruct, piece by piece, this division.
Tomorrow, with any luck, I intend to post questions that have popped up in the past about Muncheberg. If we can resolve the issue of Muncheberg's component parts and find out more about the division's leading personalities, we can move on to the really hard part. Creating a chronological log of the division's activities will, I think, be the great challenge.
But for now, I think we can all be proud of what we have accomplished so far. Very Best Regards, David :D :D :D

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David C. Clarke
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Hi Guy

Post by David C. Clarke » 20 May 2002 21:27

Well, this question was originally posed by a very fine researcher MICHI on Feldgrau, 1/24/02. I don't believe it was ever satisfactorily disposed of:

SS-Battalion Stubaf Spath & PzDiv "Muncheberg"

According to the last volume of the Division's history of the LSSAH on 6th March, 1945 a battalion of the SS-PzGren Ausb- & ErsB 1 "LSSAH", CO Stuba SPATH, was attached to the PzDiv "Muncheberg".
What happened to this battalion, and the fate of Stubaf SPATH???"

So, does anyone care to take a go at this? Best Regards, David :D

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Post by Timo » 20 May 2002 21:32

Could it be this fellow?

SPäTH, Wolfgang
01.11.1919: Geboren (SS-Nr.: 365 182)
11.1944: SS-Hauptsturmführer

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David C. Clarke
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Hi Timo!

Post by David C. Clarke » 20 May 2002 21:42

Hi Timo, I don't know, I drew a blank on this one--couldn't find anything. Best Regards, David :(

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Post by Timo » 20 May 2002 21:54

Well, its just an estimated guess :)

Wolfgang Späth is given as SS-Hauptsturmführer in SS-Pz.AA 1 in November 1944, but as he holds no command in this unit in December 1944 I am quite convinced that he was just there in November to oversee part of refitting. In that case its no surprise if he moved on to the Ausbildungs-und-Erstatz units afterwards. Also, a Hstuf. in November 1944 could very well be a Stubaf. in April 1945.

I'll try to find more

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