Warm your heart

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Dan
Financial supporter
Posts: 8429
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 14:06
Location: California

Warm your heart

Post by Dan » 22 May 2002 14:41

Here's something that will warm the hearts of certain people here.

http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-sch ... news%2Dhed

For the first time in history, a native born American is kicked out of the country.

Ovidius
Member
Posts: 1414
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 19:04
Location: Romania

Post by Ovidius » 22 May 2002 15:03

The article contains some inaccuracies:

Early in World War II, Schiffer joined the Romanian Army and served in Adolf Hitler's Waffen-SS military as a prison guard in the Death's Head battalion. He worked at the Sachsenhausen, Trawniki, Majdanek, and Flossenburg death camps.


1. Romanian Royal Army recruited only Romanian citizens - nobody told if a native-born American citizen had applied for Romanian citizenship prior to WWII;

2. Leaving the Romanian Army during wartime to join another military force, either allied or opponent, meant desertion, and we know how desertion is punished during wartime; that's why only a fraction of Ethnic Germans from Romania did attempt to flee to Germany to join the Wehrmacht or SS, and this mostly before they were conscripted to Romanian Army, not after; the fact that Schiffer was allowed to join the SS is highly suspect;

3. Sachsenhausen was a concentration camp, and not a death camp;

Even though many of the former Nazi guards look frail, he said, U.S. officials have to go after them to show young people that no matter how much time has elapsed, these criminals are accountable for their treachery.


Treachery towards whom? Schiffer and other Allied citizens were just a fraction of the SS camp guards.

Anyway, if this man chooses to stay here, I'll try to find and interview him.

~Best regards,

Ovidius

PS Maybe I'll find his mail address and send it to our dear friend Mike Miller :mrgreen:

Tarpon27
Member
Posts: 338
Joined: 12 Mar 2002 00:34
Location: FL, USA

Post by Tarpon27 » 22 May 2002 17:43

Dan wrote:

For the first time in history, a native born American is kicked out of the country.


Not quite what the article says:

Philadelphia-born Schiffer, 82, whose family moved to Romania when he was a year old, could be the first native-born American who served at a Nazi death camp to be deported.


Just trying to be precise... :wink:

Best,

Mark

Xanthro
Member
Posts: 2803
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 00:11
Location: Pasadena, CA

Post by Xanthro » 22 May 2002 18:32

1,000s of Native Born Americans have been kicked out of the country in the history of the United States.

While most of these have been innocent of any type of activity that would revoke their citizenship. Schiffer by joining a beligerent army renounced his citizenship, thus he is like any other person who applies for US citizenship. By lying on his application, he forfeits that citizenship.

Many people who are born in the United States end up being deported with their parents. So your statement that this is the first time a Native Born Citizen was deported is simply wrong.

Xanthro

User avatar
Starinov
Member
Posts: 1490
Joined: 18 Apr 2002 16:29
Location: Québec, Canada.

Post by Starinov » 22 May 2002 19:24

Don't start to get excited. It is a newspaper article: journalists tend to write what people will read ("death camp") and not was is the truth....

User avatar
Scott Smith
Member
Posts: 5602
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 21:17
Location: Arizona

RAF and Partisans: Set Europe Ablaze!

Post by Scott Smith » 22 May 2002 21:10

Many Americans joined the British armed forces before American involvement in WWII. They were clearly not being neutral in thought and deed. I wonder why they do not automatically lose their U.S. citizenship, be deported, and let alone get prosecuted for warcrimes...

"Under penalties of perjury, are you now or have you ever been a Tory?"
:wink:

Tarpon27
Member
Posts: 338
Joined: 12 Mar 2002 00:34
Location: FL, USA

Post by Tarpon27 » 23 May 2002 00:15

Scott wrote:

Many Americans joined the British armed forces before American involvement in WWII. They were clearly not being neutral in thought and deed. I wonder why they do not automatically lose their U.S. citizenship, be deported, and let alone get prosecuted for warcrimes...


I forgot that the British and its allies declared war on the US, and that they used Waffen SS to guard POWs.

What is this smokescreen of "...not being neutral in thought"? Since when was that a requirement? And what does joining the RAF, or the Canadian armed forces, or any Allied military force have to do with this man's deportation? Did you read the article?




[...]

According to the INS:

Early in World War II, Schiffer joined the Romanian Army and served in Adolf Hitler's Waffen-SS military as a prison guard in the Death's Head battalion. He worked at the Sachsenhausen, Trawniki, Majdanek, and Flossenburg death camps.

He returned to the United States in 1953 and illegally reacquired his American citizenship by hiding his involvement with the Nazis and not informing the INS of his arrest as a war crimes suspect. The U.S. Army captured Schiffer in Germany in May 1945 and held him in a camp for war crimes suspects.

His U.S. citizenship was revoked in 1993, and an immigration judge in 1997 ordered him to be deported. The next year, his appeal with the Board of Immigration Appeals was dismissed.

[...]




Mark

User avatar
Scott Smith
Member
Posts: 5602
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 21:17
Location: Arizona

The DEVIL is NAZI...

Post by Scott Smith » 23 May 2002 00:55

Tarpon27 wrote:What is this smokescreen of "...not being neutral in thought"? Since when was that a requirement? And what does joining the RAF, or the Canadian armed forces, or any Allied military force have to do with this man's deportation? Did you read the article?

Merely an observation. If war had not come or if the USA lost the war or became involved in war against Britain then things would be quite different. Because, I take the risk of losing my citizenship when I join another nation's armed forces. Another John Walker Lindh (assuming he is guilty).

Since when was neutrality a requirement? A tacit admission that the Roosevelt regime was NOT neutral long before December 11, 1941.
:wink:

If Schiffer is guilty of warcrimes or murder he can be charged in the United States. For some, however, lying about service in the SS is ipso facto proof of diabolical wrongdoings, and he should be deported to foreign climes for an uncertain fate.

Do we deport every senior citizen who lied on an immigration form decades ago? I think not!

Because the Good Guys won the war and the enemy was the DEVIL...
:)
Last edited by Scott Smith on 24 May 2002 02:13, edited 1 time in total.

Ron Birch
Member
Posts: 515
Joined: 05 May 2002 00:56
Location: USA

Post by Ron Birch » 23 May 2002 04:05

mmmmm...... :roll: :roll: :roll:

Ovidius
Member
Posts: 1414
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 19:04
Location: Romania

Post by Ovidius » 23 May 2002 09:34

Starinov wrote:It is a newspaper article: journalists tend to write what people will read ("death camp") and not was is the truth....


Indeed, this is not the truth. But yes, journalists tend to write what people will read, and people will read what the earlier journalists taught them to read. So Sachsenhausen was a death camp, SS guards were robotic monsters like Amon L. Goeth, the American heroes in Normandy were just liberating Europe from the Evil Nazis. How could it be different from how our dear friend Spielberg says it was? :mrgreen: :P

Tarpon27 wrote:I forgot that the British and its allies declared war on the US, and that they used Waffen SS to guard POWs.


Waffen SS did guard POWs only when they captured them in battle, and I doubt the POWs were sent afterwards to Sachsenhausen :monkee:

Scott Smith wrote:For some, however, lying about service in the SS is ipso facto proof of diabolical wrongdoings, and he should be deported to foreign climes for an uncertain fate.


Obviously yes. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

~Ovidius

User avatar
Roberto
Member
Posts: 4505
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 15:35
Location: Lisbon, Portugal

Post by Roberto » 23 May 2002 13:08

Waffen SS did guard POWs only when they captured them in battle, and I doubt the POWs were sent afterwards to Sachsenhausen


Many Soviet prisoners of war who survived the treatment accorded to them by their Waffen SS or Wehrmacht captors were actually bumped off at Sachsenhausen concentration camp:

Justiz und NS-Verbrechen
Nazi Crimes on Trial

* Glossary *
To return, please close this window

Case Nr.473
Crime Category: NS-Crimes in Detainment Centers, War Crimes
Accused:
Schubert, Wilhelm Karl Ferdinand life sentence + 15 Years
Sorge, Gustav Hermann life sentence + 15 Years
Court:
LG Bonn 590206
Country where the crime was committed: Germany
Crime Location: HS KL Esterwegen, HS KL Sachsenhausen, HS KL Berlin-Lichterfelde
Crime Date: 35-43
Victims: Prisoners, Jews, Prisoners of War
Nationality: German, Lithuanian, Dutch, Austrian, Polish, Soviet, Czech, unknown
Office: Haftstättenpersonal KL Esterwegen, Haftstättenpersonal KL Sachsenhausen
Subject of the proceeding: Killing and attempted killing of prisoners from KL Esterwegen. Participation in the mass killing of about 10,000 Russian POW's in the execution barracks 'Genickschussbaracke') of KL Sachsenhausen. Killing and attempted killing of a great many prisoners of KL Sachsenhausen

Published in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Vol. XV


Source of quote:

http://www.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/brdengf ... eng473.htm

Case Nr.497
Crime Category: NS-Crimes in Detainment Centers, War Crimes
Accused:
Böhm, Otto Wilhelm life sentence
Hempel, Horst 5 Years
Höhn, August life sentence
Court:
LG Düsseldorf 601015
Country where the crime was committed: Germany
Crime Location: HS KL Sachsenhausen
Crime Date: 41-4504
Victims: Jews, Prisoners of War, Prisoners, Foreign Laborers
Nationality: Soviet, German, unknown
Office: Haftstättenpersonal KL Sachsenhausen
Subject of the proceeding: Execution of at least 200 prisoners within the context of the 'Special Treatment' ('Sonderbehandlung') of Russian POW's in the execution barracks ('Genickschussbaracke'). Strangulation or hanging of prisoners on the roll-call grounds. Shooting of 27 prisoners of the 'leather Kommando' in the crematorium. Shooting, hanging and gassing of individual persons and groups of persons, who had been especially transferred to KL Sachsenhausen for this purpose. Shooting of 82 prisoners within the context of the alarm stage 'Scharnhorst', which involved the killing of prisoners specified by name, at the time of the evacuation of the camp. Killing of at least 2000 ill prisoners at the time of the camp's evacuation, early 1945. Shooting of altogether about 230 Jewish prisoners, who had been transferred to KL Sachsenhausen at the time of the evacuation of the Nebenlager Lieberose. Shooting of a number of prisoners during the evacuation march from KL Sachsenhausen in the direction of Lübeck

Published in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Vol. XVI


Source of quote:

http://www.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/brdengf ... eng497.htm

walterkaschner
In memoriam
Posts: 1588
Joined: 13 Mar 2002 01:17
Location: Houston, Texas

Post by walterkaschner » 24 May 2002 00:53

Scott and others,

Just for the record, my recollection is (and I haven't looked this up for many years) that one does not necessarily lose one's US citizenship by serving in the armed forces of another nation. The loss occurs if one swears allegiance to another nation, thereby abjuring allegiance to the US, an essential element of citizenship, or serves in the armed forces of a nation with which the US is at war, as appears to be the case of the gentleman in question here (although it may be that he applied for Romanian citizenship, which also is a cause for loss of US citizenship, the newspaper report is not clear). My understanding is that, for example, US citizens who volunteered for service with the Allies in WWI (a friend of my father was in the Lafayette Esquadrille and fought for France until 1917, and then for the US), with the Lincoln Brigade in the Spanish Civil War, and with Canada, Britain or France in WWII, were not required to swear allegiance to a foreign state, and thus no loss of citizenship occured. The case of John Walker Lindh presents some interesting legal issues, of course, as there is a question (perhaps only of fact) as to the Taliban's status as a "nation" and also whether it was technically and in a legal sense at war with the US. This may be a case of first impression, and one which may not be finally decided for many a year.

Incidentally, as to taking newspaper reports as Gospel, I am reminded of some advice given me years ago by a much elder and wiser man when I was complaining mightily about a totally inaccurate report concerning a matter I knew quite a bit about. He advised me "Walter, you should read that stuff fast, because they write it fast!" That has IMHO proved to be excellent advise over the years.

Regards, Kaschner

Dan
Financial supporter
Posts: 8429
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 14:06
Location: California

Post by Dan » 24 May 2002 01:26

Hi Mr. Kaschner.

Fortunately, you are mistaken. When an American goes to another country and gets citizenship, (like Israel or South Africa :) ) You don't automatically lose your American citizenship. You can do this and even your children born in that other country are still Americans.

Regards

Dan

walterkaschner
In memoriam
Posts: 1588
Joined: 13 Mar 2002 01:17
Location: Houston, Texas

Post by walterkaschner » 24 May 2002 02:33

Scott, one last thought on this thread.

You asked "Do we deport every senior citizen who lied on an immigration form decades ago. I think not?"

In my view, yes we certainly should. The US Congress has for decades, rightly or wrongly, imposed strict quotas on the number of immigrants, country by country, it would permit entry to the US. The number of those desiring entry from most countries far exceeded the quotas imposed. Therefore a Romanian who lied on his visa application and was granted entry to the US in all likelihood supplanted another Romanian applicant who equally desired and would have otherwise been entitled to such entry, the liar thereby becoming entitled to the benefits of US residence which others eagerly sought and were denied. On the basis of his lies he has enjoyed those benefits for some 50 years. Is it your notion that the longer you enjoy the benefits you illegally obtained and in effect thereby stole from some other deserving person, the more lenient your treatment should be? I think not. In my view, people such as Schiffer and Demyanchuk, if it can be proved that they lied on their visa applications and thereby have enjoyed the fruits of their mendacity for half a century at the expense of others with more legitimate claims, deserve no compassion whatsoever. Old age is simply no excuse. To the contrary, they have enjoyed over half a lifetime of undeserved and illegally acquired benefits, at someone else's expense. I can muster no tears for them at their comeuppance, although I do have a great deal of sympathy for their innocent wives and children.

Regards, Kaschner

walterkaschner
In memoriam
Posts: 1588
Joined: 13 Mar 2002 01:17
Location: Houston, Texas

Post by walterkaschner » 24 May 2002 07:06

Hi Dan, its always good to hear from you.

Yes, I know that a US citizen can obtain citizenship in another country without losing his US citizenship, but as I recall that is only if he is not required by the other country in the process of so doing to renounce (abjure) his allegiance to the US. In several countries - Germany was such a one at one time but I don't know if it is any longer - the father's nationality automatically determined the nationality of his children, so if the child of a German father was born in the US it automatically had dual US-German citizenship. This created a severe problem in the case of a male child who went back to Germany to visit, because he was thus subject to the German compulsory conscription laws and could find himself obliged to serve his term in the German army. If I recall correctly, there were several legal cases involving this issue toward the end of the 19th Century and the US courts held that US citizenship was not thereby lost, because there was no intent to renounce US citizenship under the circumstances.

I'm not familiar with the requirements of obtaining Israeli or South African citizenship, but I have heard somewhere that Israel automatically considers any Jew an Israeli citizen, and if that is so then of course a Jew who is a US citizen could acquire Israeli citizenship without renouncing his US citizenship, and therby become a dual national.

I looked into this rather carefully many years ago because my son was born in France and I thought he might desire at some point to obtain French citizenship, if he could do so without losing his US nationality. Under French law then prevailing (I don't know if it has changed) he could, having been born in France, become a French citizen without renouncing his US citizenship and therefore acquire dual nationality. But the conditions were such that it was impractical for him to do so, and today he carries only one passport.

But you are quite right in that I erred in stating that the application for citizenship in another country automatically entails the loss of US citizenship. That was a careless statement, clearly not correct, and I apologize for it. A US citizen can certainly have dual citizenship with another country, but only if (if memory serves and the law has not changed) he does not in the process renounce, directly or indirectly, his US citizenship.

Regards, Kaschner

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”