Einsatzgruppe Murders and German policy

Ostuf Charlemagne · Post by **Ostuf Charlemagne** » 22 Sep 2003 03:53

Oleg : You are completely wrong,either biased or mistaken.
That's exactly the contrary; german crimes were not part of a governmental policy .See the order of General Von Schenckendorff,commander of german rear-guardof central Russia (Smolensk headquarters) ,in his circulary of August 3rd 1942...
He forbidded to take hostages and the shooting of non-armed civilians and even the shooting of armed women .
If it was a governmental policy,how could a general suppress it ???

Besides no nazi poets advocated the rape and murder of russian women like Ilhya Ehrenburg did for the german women ...to the contrary ,the soviets deported -as a policy- the baltic civilians ,for instance,only in Lithuania,6000 executions and 35000 deportations in 1940...those civilians hadn't helped the nazis,since the nazis weren't here ,yet...
No small wonder if 10% of the total populations of Latvia and Estonia volunteered in the Waffen-SS !!!

So you says soviet crimes were not part of a policy ???
Did the name KATYN rings a bell to you ???

About Katyn,let's mentionate a recent anecdote :

In 1990 after some US jewish circles praised the hangmen of Katyn because most of them were jews,Zbignew Brzezinski (former adviser of US President Jimmy Carter -for the youngest non american readers)
went uppset and sent a letter to the american -jewish Committee
(published in ''Commentary'',magasine of the american-jewish Committee,october 1990)
,where he stated :

'' My anger is because ,even being saturated by the revelations of the monumental-level crimes of Stalin,no one stalinist criminal had been punished(...) ex-NKVD major Serepenko lives comfortably in Moscu(...)
Kartachovmay bragg about having executed a lot of people for the NKVD..If Kartachov and the others had been SS,we would have a general mobilization exiging a trial for them''

But i guess you think ''judeo-bolshevism'' was an invention of nazi propaganda.In fact it's just the reason of the killing of the baltic jews by einsatzgruppen counterinsurgency teams... No because of a preplanned policy .

Ostuf Charlemagne · Post by **Ostuf Charlemagne** » 22 Sep 2003 04:14

By the way,Oleg, about Panzermahn,you said '' he wasted bandwidth...wich is typical of him'' ( i don't have this impression readind his posts..see the one he posted about Wiesenthal,with an informed links )...saying that is comtemptative at best....May it be racism because Panzermahn is from Malaysia and ,being an asiatic,he dares to counter you ??
One Question : In wich country do you live,Oleg ?????

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 22 Sep 2003 04:16

Ostuf Charlemagne -- The activities of the Einsatzgruppe are off-topic on this thread, but certainly worth discussing. Please open a new thread or revive an old one on the subject, so the readers in this section of the forum can find the information by using the forum search engine. (This is the main reason I insist that the posters stay on topic -- it's almost impossible for interested readers to find the information later, if it's scattered throughout various unrelated threads).

Oleg Grigoryev · Post by **Oleg Grigoryev** » 22 Sep 2003 06:13

That's exactly the contrary; german crimes were not part of a governmental policy .See the order of General Von Schenckendorff,commander of german rear-guardof central Russia (Smolensk headquarters) ,in his circulary of August 3rd 1942...
He forbidded to take hostages and the shooting of non-armed civilians and even the shooting of armed women .
If it was a governmental policy,how could a general suppress it ???

Good for you you found one German order I can quote you form memory - 4 that did not mind that? Would you like me to?

Besides no nazi poets advocated the rape and murder of russian women like Ilhya Ehrenburg did for the german women ...to the contrary

find me Erenburg article where he ask to rape. As to the contrary - spare me. Germans stopped punishing the rape on USSR territory –as a matter of policy. Meanwhile reports like “Drunk Germans came, pick girls.. Girls never came back” are commonplace among the population complaints collected by the Red Army.

the soviets deported -as a policy- the baltic civilians ,for instance,only in Lithuania,6000 executions and 35000 deportations in 1940...those civilians hadn't helped the nazis,since the nazis weren't here ,yet...
No small wonder if 10% of the total populations of Latvia and Estonia volunteered in the Waffen-SS !!!

ah even it was so – what it has to do with Soviet-German conflict?

So you says soviet crimes were not part of a policy ???
Did the name KATYN rings a bell to you ???

It does. Does Bagerovskiy Rov –say anything to you?

''judeo-bolshevism'' was an invention of nazi propaganda

– it is.

By the way,Oleg, about Panzermahn,you said '' he wasted bandwidth...wich is typical of him'' ( i don't have this impression readind his posts..see the one he posted about Wiesenthal,with an informed links )...saying that is comtemptative at best....May it be racism because Panzermahn is from Malaysia and ,being an asiatic,he dares to counter you ??

no I just don’t like people who scream “propaganda” at everything they don’t like, without providing anything for their assertion.

One Question : In wich country do you live,Oleg ?????

For the last 10 days I’ve been leaving in Brooklyn. I was born in Novomoskovsk near Tula , lived in Moscow and Novosibirsk – why?

P.S See my post on this thread
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=25450
also this thread
Have fun

Oleg Grigoryev · Post by **Oleg Grigoryev** » 22 Sep 2003 06:31

Directive of High Command Headhunters (Stavka)

To the commanders and military council members of 1st Byelorussian and 1st Ukrainian fronts
In regards to attitude toward German POWs and civilian population.

April 20th 1945.

Stavka orders:

1. Enforce the better treatment of civilians as well as POWs . Cruelty towards Germans cases the later to be afraid of us and forcing them to stubbornly resist our advance as well as not surrender. Civil populations, terrified of revenge, is organizing bands. This is not acceptable. Humane treatment of Germans will make fighting for us easier , and will undoubtedly soften their resistance.
2. In German areas west of line mouth of Order-Fursteburg-Neise German administrations are to be created; the cities are to be rulled by German burgomasters. Small-time members of Nazi party, that are loyal to the Red Army are not be touché. Only big leaders are to be arrested.
3. Better treatment of Germans are no to grow into fraternizations with the later.

Signed Stalin, Antonov.

No this is example of govermenatl policy. Anything like that from the German side?

From order by Peoples Commissar of Defense from February 23 1942.

From order by Peoples Commissar of Defense from February 23 1942.

The Red Army goal is expulsion of German occupiers from our country. Most probably the war would end with destruction of Hitler’s clique. We would salute to such an end. However it is not right to associate Hitler with German people, with German state,. History show -various Hitlers come and go but German people, German state is to remain there. anything like that maybe?

"Yet while Ehrenburg never shrank from the most bloodthirsty harangues, the most notorious statement, which is still attributed to him by western historians, was a Nazi invention. He is accused of having urged Red Army soldiers to take German women as their "lawful booty" and to "break their racial pride."
Anthony Beevor, The Fall of Berlin 1945

witness · Post by **witness** » 22 Sep 2003 13:17

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:That's exactly the contrary; german crimes were not part of a governmental policy .

Really ?

The Commander of
the security police and
the SD
Einsatzkommando 3 Kauen [Kaunas], 1 December 1941

-----------------------------
| Secret Reich Business! |
-----------------------------
5 copies
4th copy
Complete list of executions carried out in the EK 3 area up to 1 December 1941

Security police duties in Lithuania taken over by Einsatzkommando 3 on 2 July 1941.

(The Wilna [Vilnius] area was taken over by EK 3 on 9 Aug. 1941, the Schaulen area on 2 Oct. 1941. Up until these dates EK 9 operated in Wilna and EK 2 in Schaulen.)

On my instructions and orders the following executions were conducted by Lithuanian partisans:4.7.41 Kauen-Fort VII 416 Jews, 47 Jewesses 463
6.7.41 Kauen-Fort VII Jews 2,514

Following the formation of a raiding squad under the command of SS-Obersturmführer Hamman and 8-10 reliable men from the Einsatzkommando, the following actions were conducted in cooperation with Lithuanian partisans:

7.7.41 Mariampole Jews 32
8.7.41 Mariampole 14 Jews, 5 Comm. officials 19
8.7.41 Girkalinei Comm. officials 6
9.7.41 Wendziogala 32 Jews, 2 Jewesses, 1 Lithuanian
(f.), 2 Lithuanian Comm., 1 Russian Comm. 38
9.7.41 Kauen-Fort VII 21 Jews, 3 Jewesses 24
14.7.41 Mariampole 21 Jews, 1 Russ., 9 Lith. Comm. 31
17.7.41 Babtei 8 Comm. officials (incl. 6 Jews) 8
18.7.41 Mariampole 39 Jews, 14 Jewesses 53
19.7.41 Kauen-Fort VII 17 Jews, 2 Jewesses, 4 Lith.
Comm., 2 Comm. Lithuanians (f.),
1 German Comm. 26
21.7.41 Panevezys 59 Jews, 11 Jewesses, 1
Lithuanian (f.), 1 Pole, 22 Lith.
Comm., 9 Russ. Comm. 103
22.7.41 Panevezys 1 Jew 1
23.7.41 Kedainiai 83 Jews, 12 Jewesses, 14 Russ.
Comm., 15 Lith. Comm., 1 Russ.
O-Politruk 125
25.7.41 Mariampole 90 Jews, 13 Jewesses 103
28.7.41 Panevezys 234 Jews, 15 Jewesses, 19 Russ.
Comm., 20 Lith. Comm. 288

Total carried forward 3,384
sheet 2
Total carried forward 3,384

29.7.41 Rasainiai 254 Jews, 3 Lith. Comm. 257
30.7.41 Agriogala 27 Jews, 11 Lith. Comm. 38
31.7.41 Utena 235 Jews, 16 Jewesses, 4 Lith.
Comm., 1 robber/murderer 256
31.7.41 Wendziogala 13 Jews, 2 murderers 15
1.8.41 Ukmerge 254 Jews, 42 Jewesses, 1 Pol.
Comm., 2 Lith. NKVD agents, 1
mayor of Jonava who gave order
to set fire to Jonava 300
2.8.41 Kauen-Fort IV 170 Jews, 1 US Jewess, 33 Jewesses,
4 Lith. Comm. 209
4.8.41 Panevezys 362 Jews, 41 Jewesses, 5 Russ. Comm.,
14 Lith. Comm. 422
5.8.41 Rasainiai 213 Jews, 66 Jewesses 279
7.8.41 Utena 483 Jews, 87 Jewesses, 1 Lithuanian
(robber of corpses of German soldiers) 571
8.8.41 Ukmerge 620 Jews, 82 Jewesses 702
9.8.41 Kauen-Fort IV 484 Jews, 50 Jewesses 534
11.8.41 Panevezys 450 Jews, 48 Jewesses, 1 Lith. 1 Russ. 500
13.8.41 Alytus 617 Jews, 100 Jewesses, 1 criminal 719
14.8.41 Jonava 497 Jews, 55 Jewesses 552
15-16.8.41 Rokiskis 3,200 Jews, Jewesses, and J. Children,
5 Lith. Comm., 1 Pole, 1 partisan 3207
9-16.8.41 Rasainiai 294 Jewesses, 4 Jewish children 298
27.6-14.8.41 Rokiskis 493 Jews, 432 Russians, 56 Lithuanians
(all active communists) 981
18.8.41 Kauen-Fort IV 689 Jews, 402 Jewesses, 1 Pole (f.),
711 Jewish intellectuals from Ghetto
in reprisal for sabotage action 1,812
19.8.41 Ukmerge 298 Jews, 255 Jewesses, 1 Politruk,
88 Jewish children, 1 Russ. Comm. 645
22.8.41 Dunanburg 3 Russ. Comm., 5 Latvian, incl. 1
murderer, 1 Russ. Guardsman, 3 Poles,
3 gypsies (m.), 1 gypsy (f.), 1 gypsy
child, 1 Jew, 1 Jewess, 1 Armenian
(m.), 2 Politruks (prison inspection
in Dunanburg 21

Total carried forward 16,152
sheet 3
Total carried forward 16,152

22.8.41 Aglona Mentally sick: 269 men, 227 women,
48 children 544
23.8.41 Panevezys 1,312 Jews, 4,602 Jewesses, 1,609
Jewish children 7,523
18-22.8.41 Kreis Rasainiai 466 Jews, 440 Jewesses, 1,020
Jewish children 1,926
25.8.41 Obeliai 112 Jews, 627 Jewesses, 421
Jewish children 1,160
25-26.8.41 Seduva 230 Jews, 275 Jewesses, 159
Jewish children 664
26.8.41 Zarasai 767 Jews, 1,113 Jewesses, 1 Lith.
Comm., 687 Jewish children, 1 Russ.
Comm. (f.) 2,569
28.8.41 Pasvalys 402 Jews, 738 Jewesses, 209
Jewish children 1,349
26.8.41 Kaisiadorys All Jews, Jewesses, and Jewish
children 1,911
27.8.41 Prienai All Jews, Jewesses, and Jewish
Children 1,078
27.8.41 Dagda and
Kraslawa 212 Jews, 4 Russ. POW's 216
27.8.41 Joniskia 47 Jews, 165 Jewesses, 143
Jewish children 355
28.8.41 Wilkia 76 Jews, 192 Jewesses, 134
Jewish children 402
28.8.41 Kedainiai 710 Jews, 767 Jewesses, 599
Jewish children 2,076
29.8.41 Rumsiskis and
Ziezmariai 20 Jews, 567 Jewesses, 197
Jewish children 784
29.8.41 Utena and Moletai 582 Jews, 1,731 Jewesses, 1,469
Jewish children 3,782
13-31.8.41 Alytus and
environs 233 Jews 233
1.9.41 Mariampole 1,763 Jews, 1,812 Jewesses, 1,404
Jewish children, 109 mentally sick,
1 German subject (f.), married to a
Jew, 1 Russian (f.) 5090

Total carried over 47,814
sheet 4
Total carried over 47,814

28.8-2.9.41 Darsuniskis 10 Jews, 69 Jewesses, 20
Jewish children 99
Carliava 73 Jews, 113 Jewesses, 61
Jewish children 247
Jonava 112 Jews, 1,200 Jewesses, 244
Jewish children 1,556
Petrasiunai 30 Jews, 72 Jewesses, 23
Jewish children 125
Jesuas 26 Jews, 72 Jewesses, 46
Jewish children 144
Agriogala 207 Jews, 260 Jewesses, 195
Jewish children 662
Jasvainai 86 Jews, 110 Jewesses, 86
Jewish children 282
Babtei 20 Jews, 41 Jewesses, 22
Jewish children 83
Wendziogala 42 Jews, 113 Jewesses, 97
Jewish children 252
Krakes 448 Jews, 476 Jewesses, 97
Jewish children 1,125
4.9.41 Pravenischkis 247 Jews, 6 Jewesses 253
Cekiske 22 Jews, 64 Jewesses, 60
Jewish children 146
Seredsius 6 Jews, 61 Jewesses, 126
Jewish children 193
Velinona 2 Jews, 71 Jewesses, 86
Jewish children 159
Zapiskis 47 Jews, 118 Jewesses, 13
Jewish children 178
5.9.41 Ukmerge 1,123 Jews, 1,849 Jewesses, 1,737
Jewish children 4,709
25.8-6.9.41 Mopping up in:
Rasainiai
Georgenburg 16 Jews, 412 Jewesses, 415
Jewish children
all Jews, all Jewesses, all
Jewish children 843

412
9.9.41 Alytus 287 Jews, 640 Jewesses, 352
Jewish children 1,279
9.9.41 Butrimonys 67 Jews, 370 Jewesses, 303
Jewish children 740
10.9.41 Merkine 223 Jews, 640 Jewesses, 276
Jewish children 854
10.9.41 Varena 541 Jews, 141 Jewesses, 149
Jewish children 831
11.9.41 Leipalingis 60 Jews, 70 Jewesses, 25
Jewish children 155
11.9.41 Seirijai 229 Jews, 384 Jewesses, 340
Jewish children 953
12.9.41 Simnas 68 Jews, 197 Jewesses, 149
Jewish children 414
11-12.9.41 Uzusalis Reprisal against inhabitants who
fed Russ. partisans; some in
possession of weapons 43
26.9.41 Kauen-F.IV 412 Jews, 615 Jewesses, 581
Jewish children (sick and
suspected epidemic cases) 1,608

Total carried over 66,159
sheet 5
Total carried over 66,159

2.10.41 Zagare 633 Jews, 1,107 Jewesses, 496
Jewish children (as these Jews were
being led away a mutiny rose, which
was however immediately put down;
150 Jews were shot immediately; 7
partisans wounded) 2,236
4.10.41 Kauen-F.IX 315 Jews, 712 Jewesses, 818
Jewish children (reprisal after
German police officer shot in ghetto) 1,845
29.10.41 Kauen-F.IX 2,007 Jews, 2,920 Jewesses, 4,273
Jewish children (mopping up ghetto
of superfluous Jews) 9,200
3.11.41 Lazdijai 485 Jews, 511 Jewesses, 539
Jewish children 1,535
15.11.41 Wilkowiski 36 Jews, 48 Jewesses, 31
Jewish children 115
25.11.41 Kauen-F.IX 1,159 Jews, 1,600 Jewesses, 175
Jewish children (resettlers from
Berlin, Munich and Frankfurt am main) 2,934
29.11.41 Kauen-F.IX 693 Jews, 1,155 Jewesses, 152
Jewish children (resettlers from
from Vienna and Breslau) 2,000
29.11.41 Kauen-F.IX 17 Jews, 1 Jewess, for contravention
of ghetto law, 1 Reichs German who
converted to the Jewish faith and
attended rabbinical school, then 15
terrorists from the Kalinin group
34
EK 3 detachment in Dunanburg
in the period 13.7-21.8.41: 9,012 Jews, Jewesses and Jewish
children, 573 active Comm.
9,585
EK 3 detachment in Wilna:
12.8-1.9.41 City of Wilna 425 Jews, 19 Jewesses, 8 Comm. (m.),
9 Comm. (f.) 461
2.9.41 City of Wilna 864 Jews, 2,019 Jewesses, 817
Jewish children (sonderaktion because
German soldiers shot at by Jews) 3,700

Total carried forward 99,084
sheet 6
Total carried forward 99,804

12.9.41 City of Wilna 993 Jews, 1,670 Jewesses, 771
Jewish children 3,334
17.9.41 City of Wilna 337 Jews, 687 Jewesses, 247
Jewish children and 4 Lith. Comm. 1,271
20.9.41 Nemencing 128 Jews, 176 Jewesses, 99
Jewish children 403
22.9.41 Novo-Wilejka 468 Jews, 495 Jewesses, 196
Jewish children 1,159
24.9.41 Riess 512 Jews, 744 Jewesses, 511
Jewish children 1,767
25.9.41 Jahiunai 215 Jews, 229 Jewesses, 131
Jewish children 575
27.9.41 Eysisky 989 Jews, 1,636 Jewesses, 821
Jewish children 3,446
30.9.41 Trakai 366 Jews, 483 Jewesses, 597
Jewish children 1,446
4.10.41 City of Wilna 432 Jews, 1,115 Jewesses, 436
Jewish children 1,983
6.10.41 Semiliski 213 Jews, 359 Jewesses, 390
Jewish children 962
9.10.41 Svenciany 1,169 Jews, 1,840 Jewesses, 717
Jewish children 3,726
16.10.41 City of Wilna 382 Jews, 507 Jewesses, 257
Jewish children 1,146
21.10.41 City of Wilna 718 Jews, 1,063 Jewesses, 586
Jewish children 2,367
25.10.41 City of Wilna 1,776 Jewesses, 812 Jewish children 2,578
27.10.41 City of Wilna 946 Jews, 184 Jewesses, 73
Jewish children 1,203
30.10.41 City of Wilna 382 Jews, 789 Jewesses, 362
Jewish children 1,553
6.11.41 City of Wilna 340 Jews, 749 Jewesses, 252
Jewish children 1,341
19.11.41 City of Wilna 76 Jews, 77 Jewesses, 18
Jewish children 171
19.11.41 City of Wilna 6 POW's, 8 Poles 14
20.11.41 City of Wilna 3 POW's 3
25.11.41 City of Wilna 9 Jews, 46 Jewesses, 8 Jewish
children, 1 Pole for possession of arms
and other military equipment 64
EK 3 detachment in Minsk from
28.9-17.10.41:

Pleschnitza
Bischolin
Scak
Bober
Uzda 620 Jews, 1,285 Jewesses,
1,126 Jewish children and 19
Comm. 3,050
--------
133,346
Prior to EK 3 taking over security police duties, Jews liquidated
by pogroms and executions (including partisans) 4,000
-----------
Total 137,346

Today I can confirm that our objective, to solve the Jewish problem for Lithuania, has been achieved by EK 3. In Lithuania there are no more Jews, apart from Jewish workers and their families.
.
.
.
The distance between from the assembly point to the graves was on average 4 to 5 Km.
.
.
.
I consider the Jewish action more or less terminated as far as Einsatzkommando 3 is concerned. Those working Jews and Jewesses still available are needed urgently and I can envisage that after the winter this workforce will be required even more urgently. I am of the view that the sterilization program of the male worker Jews should be started immediately so that reproduction is prevented. If despite sterilization a Jewess becomes pregnant she will be liquidated.
.
.
.
(signed) Jager
SS-Standartenführer

Erik · Post by **Erik** » 22 Sep 2003 21:35

Mr. Thompson wrote:

Ostuf Charlemagne -- The activities of the Einsatzgruppe are off-topic on this thread, but certainly worth discussing. Please open a new thread or revive an old one on the subject, so the readers in this section of the forum can find the information by using the forum search engine. (This is the main reason I insist that the posters stay on topic -- it's almost impossible for interested readers to find the information later, if it's scattered throughout various unrelated threads).

Witness referred to the Jaeger Report as a documentation of a Nazi "governmental" extermination policy.

The Report was the subject of a closed thread from December 2002:

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=12367

witness · Post by **witness** » 23 Sep 2003 03:06

In the thread mentioned by Erik ,Angelo wrote :

Well, Erik, I don't like offending people who have opposite views to mine
as long as they manage to show some COHERENCE and some ARTICULATED RATIONALE. But with you, in this case, I really find it hard

Difficult to say better.
Perhaps Erik can show us that Jaeger's signature on this document was faked .. and that therefore the Jaeger report is nothing else but " pure imagination "?

"Afterwards Squealer made a round of the farm and set the animal minds at rest.He assured them that the resolution against engaging in trade and using money had never been passed ,or even suggested .It was pure imagination,probably traceable in the beggining to lies circulated by Snowball. A few animals still felt faintly doubtful but Squealer asked them shrewedly "Are you certain that this is not something that you have dreamt ,comrades ?Have you any record of such resolution ? Is it written down anywhere “?"
(G.Orwell "Animal farm " )

For the squealers :

The authenticity of the Einsatzgruppen reports has never been seriously challenged. The original copies of the reports were found in the archives of the Gestapo when it was searched by the U.S. Army. A complete set of those reports were introduced at the trial of 23 members of the Einsatzgruppen. At this trial witnesses who had created the reports and who had received them testified. All stated that the reports were authentic and accurate. Currently the originals of the reports are held by the German archives at Coblentz where they are available to scholars and historians for research. The U.S. National Archives, Yad Vashem, and the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum have complete sets of copies of the original documents.

At one point in the Einsatzgruppen Trial, for example, Otto Ohlendorf, the commander of Einsatzgruppe D was asked about a report (document L-180) created by Stahlecker the commander of Einsatzgruppe A. He answered: "I have read the report of Stahlecker concerning Einsatzgruppe A, in which Stahlecker asserts that his group killed 135,000 Jews and Communists in the first four months of the program. I know Stahlecker personally, and I am of the opinion that the document is authentic."

One of the most important witnesses at the Einsatzgruppen trials was Kurt Lindow who testified on July 21, 1947. Lindow was the person responsible for receiving the reports as they came in and distributed them. As he testified:

I read most of the reports and passed them on to Dr. Knoblach, Inspector of the Criminal Police, who compiled them at first. The compilation was published daily under the title 'Operational Situation Reports - U.S.S.R.' These reports were stenciled and I corrected them. Afterwards they were mimeographed and distributed. The originals of the reports which were sent to the Reich Security Main Office [RHSA] were mostly signed by the commander of the Einsatzgruppe or his deputy. . . . . . .

On the strength of my positions as deputy chief and later on chief of subdepartment IV A 1, I consider myself a competent witness, able to confirm that the 'Operational Situation Reports -- U.S.S.R." which was published by the chief of security police and the security service under file marked IV A 1 were compiled entirely from the original reports of the Einsatzgruppen reaching my subdepartment by wireless or by letter.

NMT Vol. IV, pp. 99-100.

In his testimony Lindow also verified that the reports in evidence were authentic and that the initials on the reports were those of his superiors. After his testimony the defendants in the Einsatzgruppen trial stipulated to the authenticity of the reports.

The reports have also been tested in other courts as well and found to be authentic. The Jaeger Report, for example, covers the murders committed Einsatzkommando 3 of Einsatzgruppe A in Lithuania. It was recently used in the denaturalization trial of Jonas Stelmokas in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania in 1995. Stelmokas was accused of being an officer in a Lithuanian militia unit cooperating with Einsatzgruppen A. After the challenges to the report by the defense were considered, the Jaeger Report was found to be authentic and reliable both by the trial court and an appellate court which considered an appeal of the case. U.S. v. Stelmokas 100 F.3rd 302 (3rd. Cir.; 1996)
http://www.holocaust-history.org/intro-einsatz/#vi

"Are you certain that this is not something that you have dreamt ,comrades ?Have you any record of such resolution ? Is it written down anywhere “?"

Erik · Post by **Erik** » 23 Sep 2003 18:32

Witness wrote:

In the thread mentioned by Erik ,Angelo wrote :
Quote:
Well, Erik, I don't like offending people who have opposite views to mine
as long as they manage to show some COHERENCE and some ARTICULATED RATIONALE. But with you, in this case, I really find it hard

Difficult to say better.

Angelo found it “really” hard (in my case) to offend, and witness find it difficult to say “better”.

Finding coherence and an articulated rationale in the Holocaust history is the problem that beset the rest of us who post here at the Holocaust & Warcrimes section of the TRHF(?).

The Worst Story Ever Told is an offence against all mankind. How is it possible for a human being to write something like the Jäger Report, unless to criminate somebody else, and postulating a “realm of madness” for “the other”?

The problem accentuates when doubts concerning the said possibility, and questioning the postulated realm, are postulated as signs of the same madness that is documented in the questioned document.

You are bound to get the gut feeling of a “déjà vu” from other such scriptural evidences.

When does a document arrive at such an self evidence?

The perpetrator’s signature?

Falsifications of such are unheard of in human affairs?

The exactitude of the statistics?

Other reports and documents, documenting the same “daily routine”? I.e., the overwhelming NUMBER of such documentation?

A documented “governmental policy”?

"Are you certain that this is not something that you have dreamt ,comrades ?Have you any record of such resolution ? Is it written down anywhere “?"

A resolution of the “mind reading” variety?

from other records of human history?

witness · Post by **witness** » 23 Sep 2003 20:58

Erik wrote:Witness wrote:

In the thread mentioned by Erik ,Angelo wrote :
Quote:
Well, Erik, I don't like offending people who have opposite views to mine
as long as they manage to show some COHERENCE and some ARTICULATED RATIONALE. But with you, in this case, I really find it hard

Difficult to say better.

Finding coherence and an articulated rationale in the Holocaust history is the problem that beset the rest of us who post here at the Holocaust & Warcrimes section of the TRHF(?).

Don't strain yourself too much Erik .The rationale was explained quite a while ago :

Bach Zelewsky :

"I am of the opinion that when, for years, for decades, the doctrine is preached that the Slav race is an inferior race, and Jews not even human, then such an outcome is inevitable “

Erik wrote :

The Worst Story Ever Told is an offence against all mankind

Cry me a freaking river..Like you are not aware that the history of mankind is full of cruelties of one Human to An"Other"..
From the Emperor Kaligula times up to the Inquisition Autodafes up to St Bartolomew massacre then up to Dr Guillotine famous invention up to the Great Red Purges etc etc etc...Oh we are still missing wars ,are not we ..?( but somehow Erik could not believe that the Nazis could have been cruel . Just em . You do believe in the Red Terror and St Bartolomew night Erik ,right ? Just em Nazis might not have been that brutal ..Right Erik ?

)
As you see humans are quite capable species especially when the conditions are right ( See Zelewsky quote above... )

Hell is other people.
Jean-Paul Sartre, Closed Doors (1944)

Erik wrote:

You are bound to get the gut feeling of a “déjà vu” from other such scriptural evidences.

No - an honest person is bound not to ignore the evidence where it leads him no matter how unpleasant the truth might be..
And talking about honesty- how about answering the points on the authenticity of Einsatzgruppen reports in the link I posted instead of pretending "philosophical" perplexity again .?
I don't mind reposting Erik . Just for you...

The authenticity of the Einsatzgruppen reports has never been seriously challenged. The original copies of the reports were found in the archives of the Gestapo when it was searched by the U.S. Army. A complete set of those reports were introduced at the trial of 23 members of the Einsatzgruppen. At this trial witnesses who had created the reports and who had received them testified. All stated that the reports were authentic and accurate. Currently the originals of the reports are held by the German archives at Coblentz where they are available to scholars and historians for research. The U.S. National Archives, Yad Vashem, and the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum have complete sets of copies of the original documents.

At one point in the Einsatzgruppen Trial, for example, Otto Ohlendorf, the commander of Einsatzgruppe D was asked about a report (document L-180) created by Stahlecker the commander of Einsatzgruppe A. He answered: "I have read the report of Stahlecker concerning Einsatzgruppe A, in which Stahlecker asserts that his group killed 135,000 Jews and Communists in the first four months of the program. I know Stahlecker personally, and I am of the opinion that the document is authentic."

One of the most important witnesses at the Einsatzgruppen trials was Kurt Lindow who testified on July 21, 1947. Lindow was the person responsible for receiving the reports as they came in and distributed them. As he testified:

I read most of the reports and passed them on to Dr. Knoblach, Inspector of the Criminal Police, who compiled them at first. The compilation was published daily under the title 'Operational Situation Reports - U.S.S.R.' These reports were stenciled and I corrected them. Afterwards they were mimeographed and distributed. The originals of the reports which were sent to the Reich Security Main Office [RHSA] were mostly signed by the commander of the Einsatzgruppe or his deputy. . . . . . .

On the strength of my positions as deputy chief and later on chief of subdepartment IV A 1, I consider myself a competent witness, able to confirm that the 'Operational Situation Reports -- U.S.S.R." which was published by the chief of security police and the security service under file marked IV A 1 were compiled entirely from the original reports of the Einsatzgruppen reaching my subdepartment by wireless or by letter.

NMT Vol. IV, pp. 99-100.

In his testimony Lindow also verified that the reports in evidence were authentic and that the initials on the reports were those of his superiors. After his testimony the defendants in the Einsatzgruppen trial stipulated to the authenticity of the reports.

The reports have also been tested in other courts as well and found to be authentic. The Jaeger Report, for example, covers the murders committed Einsatzkommando 3 of Einsatzgruppe A in Lithuania. It was recently used in the denaturalization trial of Jonas Stelmokas in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania in 1995. Stelmokas was accused of being an officer in a Lithuanian militia unit cooperating with Einsatzgruppen A. After the challenges to the report by the defense were considered, the Jaeger Report was found to be authentic and reliable both by the trial court and an appellate court which considered an appeal of the case. U.S. v. Stelmokas 100 F.3rd 302 (3rd. Cir.; 1996)
http://www.holocaust-history.org/intro-einsatz/#vi

I am interested to listen to your objections .,
But again not this kind of "objections"-

"Are you certain that this is not something that you have dreamt ,comrades ?Have you any record of such resolution ? Is it written down anywhere “?"

As for the mind reading ..then I would suggest you to take lessons from your Crypto-Nazi( aka "Revisionists" ) inspirators - this is their area of "research " .
Ohh and don't forget to turn their (and yours ) Squealer - "Revisionist" mode on -
"I believe in what I would like to believe was true . I'll disregard all the evidence to the contrary and obfuscate the reason whenever it suits my beliefs. Then I'll ask "shrewdly "Have you any record of such resolution ? Is it written down anywhere " "

witness · Post by **witness** » 23 Sep 2003 21:34

Erik wondered :

A documented “governmental policy”?

Heinrich Himmler, June 1941 :

It is a question of existence,
thus it will be a racial struggle
of pitiless severity, in the course of which
20 to 30 million Slavs and Jews will perish through military actions and crises of food supply.

Heinrich Himmler,September 1941 :

Even the child in the cradle must be trampled down like a poisonous toad.. We are living in an epoch of iron,during which it is necessary to sweep with iron brooms.

Michael Miller · Post by **Michael Miller** » 23 Sep 2003 21:55

That's exactly the contrary; german crimes were not part of a governmental policy .See the order of General Von Schenckendorff,commander of german rear-guardof central Russia (Smolensk headquarters) ,in his circulary of August 3rd 1942...
He forbidded to take hostages and the shooting of non-armed civilians and even the shooting of armed women .
If it was a governmental policy,how could a general suppress it ???

The report of ONE German General does not indicate overall governmental policy. And where is the proof that anything at all was "suppressed"? Are you suggesting that this ONE General could countermand the orders of the Reichssicherheitshauptamt, or of Himmler himself? Or that this one General controlled the activities of German troops throughout the entire rear area of the Eastern Front, that he could merely give an order and the brutality and mass murder would cease.

This Schenckendorff order you've referenced does not seem to prove anything whatsoever.

Mass extermination was the rule in the East. Attempting to prove otherwise makes as much sense as attempting to prove that the earth is made of licorice or that Keanu Reeves is a talented actor.

Regards,
~ Mike

Ostuf Charlemagne · Post by **Ostuf Charlemagne** » 24 Sep 2003 01:39

Here i'm sorry guys,but i won't enter in this topic,'cause we were talking about murders against estonians civilians...the einsatzgruppen we went through that like two months ago...and there i gave all my arguments (and particularly about the fake '' einsatzgruppen atrocities'' pictures forged in Canada by MI-5...a topic that not even Thompson had been able to dissmiss.....) so please go to my posts with the motor.Thanks.

Oleg Grigoryev · Post by **Oleg Grigoryev** » 24 Sep 2003 01:43

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:Here i'm sorry guys,but i won't enter in this topic,'cause we were talking about murders against estonians civilians...the einsatzgruppen we went through that like two months ago...and there i gave all my arguments (and particularly about the fake '' einsatzgruppen atrocities'' pictures forged in Canada by MI-5...a topic that not even Thompson had been able to dissmiss.....) so please go to my posts with the motor.Thanks.

No on this topic we don't. That siad the link I gave has nothing to do with einsatzgruppen. Btw found out how many excessive dethd did USSR sufferd as a result of WW II?

Erik · Post by **Erik** » 24 Sep 2003 14:46

Witness wrote:

Erik wrote :
Quote:
The Worst Story Ever Told is an offence against all mankind
Cry me a freaking river..Like you are not aware that the history of mankind is full of cruelties of one Human to An"Other"..

From the Emperor Kaligula times up to the Inquisition Autodafes up to St Bartolomew massacre then up to Dr Guillotine famous invention up to the Great Red Purges etc etc etc...Oh we are still missing wars ,are not we ..?( but somehow Erik could not believe that the Nazis could have been cruel . Just em . You do believe in the Red Terror and St Bartolomew night Erik ,right ? Just em Nazis might not have been that brutal ..Right Erik ? )

As you see humans are quite capable species especially when the conditions are right ( See Zelewsky quote above... )
Quote:
Hell is other people.
Jean-Paul Sartre, Closed Doors (1944)

The quote from Erik (above) continued:

How is it possible for a human being to write something like the Jäger Report, unless to criminate somebody else, and postulating a “realm of madness” for “the other”?

The problem accentuates when doubts concerning the said possibility, and questioning the postulated realm, are postulated as signs of the same madness that is documented in the questioned document.

Witness on the other hand “knows” human nature, like the professed Communist Sartre, and also the “conditions” that made an honest man like Bach Zelewsky able to opinionate:

Quote: Bach Zelewsky :

"I am of the opinion that when, for years, for decades, the doctrine is preached that the Slav race is an inferior race, and Jews not even human, then such an outcome is inevitable “

Witness continues:

Erik wrote:
Quote:
You are bound to get the gut feeling of a “déjà vu” from other such scriptural evidences.

No - an honest person is bound not to ignore the evidence where it leads him no matter how unpleasant the truth might be..
And talking about honesty- how about answering the points on the authenticity of Einsatzgruppen reports in the link I posted instead of pretending "philosophical" perplexity again .?

In the closed thread “The Jäger Report” (link provided above) I tried my honest best not to “ignore the evidence”, but read it before being “led” by it to some “truth”.

An alternative is to follow witness' advice above, and “not ignore the evidence where it leads him no matter how unpleasant the truth might be..”

I.e., not to ignore “where” the evidence has lead OTHERS, apparently since it is

Difficult to say better

But, as your favorite philosophic quote says:

Quote:
Hell is other people.
Jean-Paul Sartre, Closed Doors (1944)

Maybe there are other - and different? - truths outside those “closed doors” and court proceedings?

I am interested to listen to your objections .,
But again not this kind of "objections"-
Quote:
"Are you certain that this is not something that you have dreamt ,comrades ?Have you any record of such resolution ? Is it written down anywhere “?"

(

A resolution of the “mind reading” variety?

from other records of human history?

)

As for the mind reading ..then I would suggest you to take lessons from your Crypto-Nazi( aka "Revisionists" ) inspirators - this is their area of "research " .

Actually, it seems to have been Raul Hilberg’s “area of ‘research’”:

But what began in 1941 was a process of destruction not planned in advance, not organised centrally by any agency. There was no blueprint and there was no budget for destructive measures. They were [those measures] taken step by step, one step at a time. Thus came about not so much a plan being carried out, but an incredible meeting of minds, a consensus-mind reading by a far-flung bureaucracy.

The reference is: R. Hilberg in a conference, according to George DeWan, "The Holocaust in Perspective", Newsday (Long Island, NY), 23 February 1983, p. 11. 3. In Toronto, under crossexamination, R. Hilberg confirmed he had exactly used those words (Transcript, p. 846-848).

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/orgs/aust ... -faurisson

And Mr. Hilberg is the doyen of Holocaust studies, perhaps one of the “Crypto-Nazi( aka "Revisionists" ) inspirators”, but not by being a “Crypto-Nazi” himself.