why double standards?

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wildboar
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why double standards?

Post by wildboar » 26 May 2002 17:07

while german navymen were tried for waging reckless submarine warfare by allies they overlooked soviets especially , Captain Alexander Marinesko had sunk two of Germany’s largest liners and in the process had killed over 10,000 people.
WILHELM GUSTLOFF
(Jan.30, 1945)
The greatest sea tragedy of all time. The 25,484 ton German luxury cruise liner was built to carry 1,465 passengers and a crew of 400. The ship, now converted to a 500 bed hospital ship, set sail from the Bay of Danzig enroute to the port of Stettin, overcrowded with 4,658 persons including 918 naval officers and men, 373 German Women Naval Auxiliaries, 162 wounded soldiers of whom 73 were stretcher cases, and 173 crew, all fleeing from the advancing Red Army. Just before midnight, as the ship ploughed her way through the icy waters of the Baltic Sea, the ship was hit by three torpedoes from the Russian submarine S-13 (a German designed boat) commanded by Alexander Marinesko. The first torpedo hit the bow of the ship, the second, below the empty swimming pool on E-deck where the Women Auxiliaries were accommodated (most were killed) and the third hit amidships. Indescribable panic reigned as the ship listed and sank in about ninety minutes near the Danish island of Bornholm. Rescue boats picked from the stormy seas 964 survivors, many of whom were landed at Sassnitz on the island of Ruegen and taken on board the Danish hospital ship Prince Olaf which was anchored in the harbour. The exact number of drowned will never be known, as many more refugees were picked up from small boats as the Wilhelm Gustloff headed for the open sea, and were never counted. (Latest research puts the number of people on board at 10,582) Many of the 964 persons rescued from the sea, died later, and it is likely that over 7,000 souls perished.



GENERAL VON STEUBEN
(Feb.10, 1945)
A few days after the Gustloff had been sunk, the 14,600 ton liner General von Steuben of the Nord German Lloyd shipping line, set sail from Pillau in the bay of Danzig, her destination being Swinemunde. On board were 2,000 wounded soldiers, 320 nurses and 30 doctors as well as over 1,000 refugees. Just after midnight, torpedoes from the S 13 hit the Steuben. She sank in seven minutes, the wounded lying helpless, strapped to their stretchers. In those seven minutes about 3,000 persons died, 300 being picked up by escorting ships. Within ten days, Captain Alexander Marinesko had sunk two of Germany’s largest liners and in the process had killed over 10,000 people.


source-
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/maritime-1b.html

the soviet sinking's which went unpunished are questionable since german navy was rescuing its people from stalinist pre-planned atrocities which soviets didn't like and hence purposefully sank the passanger carrying ships

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Marcus
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Re: why double standards?

Post by Marcus » 26 May 2002 17:15



Prehaps you should use other sources as well and not only George Duncans' website to add support to your arguments?

/Marcus

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wildboar
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Re:

Post by wildboar » 26 May 2002 17:36

marcus

what is your personal opinion about double standards

cheers

wildboar

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Marcus
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Re:

Post by Marcus » 26 May 2002 17:38

wildboar wrote:what is your personal opinion about double standards


A warcrime is a warcrime regardless of who commits it, if that is what you are asking.

Now, how about checking other sources too?

/Marcus

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Richard Murphy
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Other sources

Post by Richard Murphy » 27 May 2002 00:26

German navymen? How many were tried? Was Lemp put on trial for sinking the Athenia, killing 112 on the day the UK declared War?

Was any other U-Boat skipper prosecuted?

Was the "Hospital Ship" Wilhelm Gustloff (Or the von Steuben.) clearly marked as a Hospital Ship (All White with prominant green band)?

The answer to these questions is a resounding NO!!!

Read this (From Jason's site http://www.feldgrau.com/wilhelmgustloff.html);

As a Wohnschiff (barracks ship) of the Kriegsmarine, under the control of the 1.Unterseeboots-Lehrdivision, and later the 2.Unterseeboots-Lehrdivision, the Gustloff lay at anchor in Gotenhafen, its new resting place, for over four years. Then, in January of 1945, the Gustloff was once more put into service, this time as a part of the largest planned naval evacuation operation in history, the rescue and transport of millions of refugees, soldiers, sick, injured and others fleeing from the advance of the Soviet forces in east. Nearly all of the former KdF liners, along with many other freight and cargo ships, naval auxiliaries, and even combat vessels, took part in this massive rescue operations. Of the largest ships that took part were the liners and passenger ships, which mostly, like the Gustloff, were until then being used as barrack and accommodation ships in either Danzig, Pillau or Gotenhafen. The largest ships were the following: Cap Arcona (27561), Robert Ley (27288), Hamburg (22117), Hansa (21131), Deutschland (21046), Potsdam (17528), Pretoria (16662), Berlin (15286), General Steuben (14660), Monte Rosa (13882), Antonio Delfino (13589), Winrich von Kniprode (10123), Ubena (9554), and the Goya.


Do you seriously think the Germans, in a mighty hurry to evacuate as many as possible, would repaint these Barracks Ships before using them?
Or did they break the rules by leaving them in hospital colours whilst being used as accomodation blocks for u-boat crews?

Furthermore; The captain of the Gustloff (Freiderich Petersen) was not using an evasive zig-zag manouvre because the weather that night was so foul (No moon, high winds and snow squalls)

Compare that to the fate of the British Hospital Ship Talamba which was bombed and sunk five miles south of Sicily on 10th July 1943 despite being clearly marked in broad daylight. No one was prosecuted for that, either.

I realise "Commie" bashing is great fun (I don't agree with Communism anymore than I do National Socialism, in fact, as both were, to all practical appearances, much the same, it's no wonder they can't get along!!), but there is a subtle difference between revising history and rewriting it!

Regards from the Park,

Rich

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Roberto
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Re: why double standards?

Post by Roberto » 27 May 2002 12:36

wildboar wrote:while german navymen were tried for waging reckless submarine warfare by allies they overlooked soviets especially , Captain Alexander Marinesko had sunk two of Germany’s largest liners and in the process had killed over 10,000 people.
WILHELM GUSTLOFF
(Jan.30, 1945)
The greatest sea tragedy of all time. The 25,484 ton German luxury cruise liner was built to carry 1,465 passengers and a crew of 400. The ship, now converted to a 500 bed hospital ship, set sail from the Bay of Danzig enroute to the port of Stettin, overcrowded with 4,658 persons including 918 naval officers and men, 373 German Women Naval Auxiliaries, 162 wounded soldiers of whom 73 were stretcher cases, and 173 crew, all fleeing from the advancing Red Army. Just before midnight, as the ship ploughed her way through the icy waters of the Baltic Sea, the ship was hit by three torpedoes from the Russian submarine S-13 (a German designed boat) commanded by Alexander Marinesko. The first torpedo hit the bow of the ship, the second, below the empty swimming pool on E-deck where the Women Auxiliaries were accommodated (most were killed) and the third hit amidships. Indescribable panic reigned as the ship listed and sank in about ninety minutes near the Danish island of Bornholm. Rescue boats picked from the stormy seas 964 survivors, many of whom were landed at Sassnitz on the island of Ruegen and taken on board the Danish hospital ship Prince Olaf which was anchored in the harbour. The exact number of drowned will never be known, as many more refugees were picked up from small boats as the Wilhelm Gustloff headed for the open sea, and were never counted. (Latest research puts the number of people on board at 10,582) Many of the 964 persons rescued from the sea, died later, and it is likely that over 7,000 souls perished.



GENERAL VON STEUBEN
(Feb.10, 1945)
A few days after the Gustloff had been sunk, the 14,600 ton liner General von Steuben of the Nord German Lloyd shipping line, set sail from Pillau in the bay of Danzig, her destination being Swinemunde. On board were 2,000 wounded soldiers, 320 nurses and 30 doctors as well as over 1,000 refugees. Just after midnight, torpedoes from the S 13 hit the Steuben. She sank in seven minutes, the wounded lying helpless, strapped to their stretchers. In those seven minutes about 3,000 persons died, 300 being picked up by escorting ships. Within ten days, Captain Alexander Marinesko had sunk two of Germany’s largest liners and in the process had killed over 10,000 people.


source-
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/maritime-1b.html

the soviet sinking's which went unpunished are questionable since german navy was rescuing its people from stalinist pre-planned atrocities which soviets didn't like and hence purposefully sank the passanger carrying ships


Nothing to do with double standards, my dear boy. Before you can put a criminal on trial, you have to catch him, and unfortunately criminals acting on behalf of or with the backing of state authority only get caught if the state they serve suffers total defeat in war. Which doesn't make them any less criminal than the ones who do get caught, or course.

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Submarine warfare

Post by Homer martin » 27 May 2002 12:53

The history channel just covered this subject last week and Captain Alexander Marinesko can't be faulted for having sunk a ship on a dark night when you can't tell if its painted pink, blue or white for that matter.
If you get a chance to see this program about Capt. Marinesko its worth watching.

/HGM

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Post by Tarpon27 » 27 May 2002 15:14

Richard Murphy wrote:

Was any other U-Boat skipper prosecuted?

Was the "Hospital Ship" Wilhelm Gustloff (Or the von Steuben.) clearly marked as a Hospital Ship (All White with prominant green band)?

The answer to these questions is a resounding NO!!!



This is in error.

During those weeks, Kranzbuehler [Admiral Donitz's attorney at Nuremberg] had not been idle. Sixty-seven German U-boat captains were imprisoned in England in Camp 18 in Featherstone Park. Kranzbuehler had dispatched an assistant to the camp with a statement averring that Admiral Donitz had never ordered his crews to kill survivors. They had been directed not to rescue them. All sixty-seven captains had signed the statement, and Kranzbuehler had managed to have it accepted into evidence.

Captain Heinz Eck had commanded the submarine that shot up survivors of the sunken Greek steamer Peleos. Nothing could have served Eck better during his own war-crimes trial than to have claimed that he had acted under Donitz's orders. Kranzbuehler instead managed to obtain a deposition from Eck, just before his execution, in which the U-boat captain admitted he had acted on his own.

_Nuremberg_, Joseph E. Persico, C 1994, ISBN 0 14 02.9815 0, pp. 337-8


This from a web based source:

The boat was heading for the Indian Ocean to join the Monsoon wolfpack operating there.

This boat got famous for all the wrong reasons when Kptlt. Heinz Eck had survivors of the Greek steamer Peleus machine-gunned in the water to erase all signs of his sinking. Eck and 2 of his crew were executed after the war, the only U-boat commander to be even tried for war crimes

http://uboat.net/boats/u852.htm


And finally, a post-script to evidence at Nuremberg per war-crimes, US submarine actions, and Donitz:

The day after Donitz's defense ended, Admiral Nimitz had gone to his office at the Navy Department in Washington. It was a Saturday afternoon, and the crusty admiral was in sports clothes, an informality that did not ease the task of Commander Joseph Broderick of the judge advocate general's office. Broderick read from a list of questions provided by Kranzbuehler. "Did U.S. submarines in the Pacific attack merchantmen without warning?" Broderick asked. Yes, Nimitz said without hesitation, except for hospital ships. Under whose authority? the lawyer asked. By order of the highest naval authority, the chief of naval operations, dated December 7, 1941, Nimitz repsonded. Did American submarines rescue survivors? Broderick went on. U.S. submarines did not rescue survivors, Nimitz said, if such action would place the submarine at risk. The deposition was soon on its way to Kranzbuehler, who introduced it into evidence.

Ibid., p. 338


Regards on Memorial Day in the US,

Mark

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Richard Murphy
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I stand corrected

Post by Richard Murphy » 27 May 2002 21:39

Tarpon,
I'd forgotten about Eck, but what he did was CLEARLY a crime. Simply sinking a ship and not picking up survivors was accepted as not being a crime because to do so would put the U-Boat in unacceptable danger, therefore Marinesko was no more a criminal than any U-Boat skipper apart from Eck.

Regards from the Park,

Rich

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