The crime of Erich Priebke

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Germania
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Post by Germania » 30 Sep 2003 17:07

You have german soldiers in prison till now or let us say again like Erich Priebke!

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Post by David Thompson » 30 Sep 2003 18:01

Germania -- You said:
You have german soldiers in prison till now or let us say again like Erich Priebke!


There are lots of criminals in prison who also used to be soldiers. So what?

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Post by Germania » 01 Oct 2003 14:54

You think people like Erich Priebke are criminals?

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Post by David Thompson » 01 Oct 2003 15:27

Germania -- You asked:
You think people like Erich Priebke are criminals?


Erich Priebke is a criminal, who was convicted in two trials in 1996 and 1997. The expression "people like Erich Priebke" leaves your question too vague to answer.

Readers who may be interested in additional details of the Ardeatine Caves massacre can find a previous thread at:

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=27453

The UN War Crimes Commission report of the trial of Field Marshal Kesselring is available on-line at:

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/WCC/kesselring.htm

The UN War Crimes Commission report of the trial of Generals von Mackensen and Maelzer is available at:

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/WCC/mackensen.htm

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Post by Germania » 01 Oct 2003 17:05

I don´t think so because he act within the international laws of this time!
If you don´t belief ask him: Associzione Uomo e Liberta, Sg. E. Priebke, Via Cardinal San-Felice N 5, I-00167 Roma
It is not interessting for me what laws after war say or what judges say after war it is interesting what the person himself says! Law after war was the law of the winners!
And when he is an criminal in your eyes where are the allied war criminals of this time and the follow wars in which prison they live with 90 years?? And under this aspect what did Rudolf Hess do for his life in prison? Don´t post links your personal opinion is asked!

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Post by Germania » 01 Oct 2003 17:15

I forgot I don´t start this treath the moderator does it within my name!

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Post by David Thompson » 01 Oct 2003 17:41

Germania -- Here are some comments on your statements:

I forgot I don´t start this treath the moderator does it within my name!


So what?

I don´t think so because he act within the international laws of this time!


What international laws are you talking about?

If you don´t belief ask him: Associzione Uomo e Liberta, Sg. E. Priebke, Via Cardinal San-Felice N 5, I-00167 Roma


Very few criminals will admit that they were guilty, no matter what crime they were convicted of committing.

It is not interessting for me what laws after war say or what judges say after war it is interesting what the person himself says!


Opinions with little or no factual basis aren't particularly interesting either.

Law after war was the law of the winners!


One of the advantages of a slogan is the fact that it requires neither thought nor proof. All you have to do is start chanting it, and the soothing reassurance comes almost immediately. Autosuggestion works well with certain types of people -- especially those who are not interested in facts.

And when he is an criminal in your eyes where are the allied war criminals of this time and the follow wars in which prison they live with 90 years??


(1) What allied war criminals are you talking about?

(2) No system catches every criminal, but that isn't a persuasive argument for releasing the ones that were caught.

And under this aspect what did Rudolf Hess do for his life in prison? Don´t post links your personal opinion is asked!


The reasons are set forth in the judgment of the International Military Tribunal (IMT). Since you're not interested in a link I won't post one.

This is a research section of the forum. People visit here to exchange and discuss information. Personal opinions are of interest only to the extent that they are informative. If your posts are going to be all opinion and no information, please consider posting your thoughts in The Lounge.

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Post by Germania » 01 Oct 2003 18:33

In your comments I see that you have an hard meaning about what you say for me it is nonsense! You belief more in articles and writings from people never talked with this persons than in the words of the people which imprisoned!
In the Landkriegsordnung is written that execution (Geiselerschiessung) is legitimated!
Why not ask him fear not interested in truth? Or better belief the winner theorie?
Factual basics about it which persons tell or told this factual basics? Person who stand beside him or what? Autosuggestion works well with people who always hear only one side of the whole story or do you ever speak with somebody or believe in informations about the other side?
Allied warcrimes! I think you host this part of the forum look in it an find some warcrimes from murder about rape, mass killing, build up death camps, bombing of cities in last months of war, etc. I know to less facts for you!
Think there always two sides in every thing exists and you believe in the one side and I believe in the other, history someday show who of you is right!
I know my english is a little bit poor for this infight but I hope you understand what I want to tell!
It is not personall as long as you are not personall against me but nobody of us does 100% know what really acts at this time and so I don´t think that we can find an ultimativ way for understand each other!

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Post by David Thompson » 01 Oct 2003 19:47

Germania -- It's not personal, and I don't have a problem with people who disagree with me, either. I've said many times that my goal is to try to present the best of discussions and information for our readers, so that they can make up their own minds. And you're right about nobody knowing 100% of everything -- that's what makes the quality of discussions here so important. I always want to know more, and I think the readers do too.

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Post by Luca » 01 Oct 2003 23:00

David Thompson wrote:Germania -- Here are some comments on your statements:
I don´t think so because he act within the international laws of this time!


What international laws are you talking about?
.

In the Article 29 of the Aja covention was write that was prohibited the attak of men in uniform of an army if the attakers was without dressing an uniform and be members of another army, and for actions of this typ the repraisal of 10 men every 1 dead was permitted.
In Roma before Via Rasella attak the GAP make 13 actions against the Italians fascists and the Germans, and only in one case the represail was applied. Via Rasella was the second.
Cause obscure informers, in these days in Roma the germans was able of capture all the biggers partisans boss. Strange that was all from cattolics or centrists partisans groups, and a little group from comunists groups that no was in line with the party line.
When the high potentiality bomb exploded in Via Rasella against a group of olds Territoriali (polizei) arrived 2 months before in Roma, that was in training cause was news coscripts, that was used for control in the Vatican City, where nothing never occurred, the partisans start a fire with pistols and one mortar against the wounded soldiers. 32 dead immediatly and 1 in the same night, around 100 was the woundeds.The civils killed 7.
Cause this fact the represail was applied.
335 was take from the Regina Coeli prison, conduct in the Fosse Ardeatine, and sommary executed.
The hours immediatly before the execution was very confused and problematics. Who was take for the dead condamn? Obviously the biggers prisoners.
Maybe was Priebke that write the list, but is no clear for me. The Questore Caruso, that much do for the city, and for thanks was assassinated at end of war, was also involved in the Ardeatine facts.
In any case for return in the topic i want say that Kappler no was condamned at life prison for the 355 executed, but for the 5 more cause a sad mistake of the writers of the death list. Infact 33 = 330 not 335.
More exactly the sentence say that Kappler make action under superior order, that was accepted from the internationals laws of war, but the fact that he was the responsable of the executions of 335 prisoners, and not 330, mean that he make personal decision, going up the superior orders, so he was coupable for all the 335 prisoners, not only 5.
In this way probable he was also coupable if the mistake have the result of 325 executed, but im not a judge.
Funny that some years ago, when some relatives of the civils killed from the bomb or of the executed arrive in the last step of an infinite long trial against the partisans (1997), the court decide that nobody of the terrorists (as in the fact was the GAP formations) was coupable for nothing cause they make a normal, legal action of war. Im really not a judge.
Luca

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Post by David Thompson » 02 Oct 2003 01:33

Luca -- You said:
In the Article 29 of the Aja covention was write that was prohibited the attak of men in uniform of an army if the attakers was without dressing an uniform and be members of another army, and for actions of this typ the repraisal of 10 men every 1 dead was permitted.


I'm assuming that "Aja" is the Italian name of the Hague (den Haag) in the Netherlands, where the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907 dealing with the Laws and Customs of War on Land were held, and your reference is to Article 29 of one of these conventions.

Neither article authorizes reprisals, and certainly not in a ratio of ten civilians for every assassinated soldier. Instead, those articles deal with the treatment of spies, in almost identical language.

In the 1899 convention (Hague II), Article 29 reads:
Article 29

An individual can only be considered a spy if, acting clandestinely, or on false pretences, he obtains, or seeks to obtain information in the zone of operations of a belligerent, with the intention of communicating it to the hostile party. Thus, soldiers not in disguise who have penetrated into the zone of operations of a hostile army to obtain information are not considered spies. Similarly, the following are not considered spies: soldiers or civilians, carrying out their mission openly, charged with the delivery of despatches destined either for their own army or for that of the enemy.

To this class belong likewise individuals sent in balloons to deliver despatches, and generally to maintain communication between the various parts of an army or a territory.


http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/hague02.htm

In the 1907 convention (Hague IV), Article 29 reads:
Art. 29.
A person can only be considered a spy when, acting clandestinely or on false pretences, he obtains or endeavours to obtain information in the zone of operations of a belligerent, with the intention of communicating it to the hostile party.

Thus, soldiers not wearing a disguise who have penetrated into the zone of operations of the hostile army, for the purpose of obtaining information, are not considered spies. Similarly, the following are not considered spies: Soldiers and civilians, carrying out their mission openly, entrusted with the delivery of despatches intended either for their own army or for the enemy's army. To this class belong likewise persons sent in balloons for the purpose of carrying despatches and, generally, of maintaining communications between the different parts of an army or a territory.


http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/hague04.htm

Neither of the two Hague conventions dealing with the Laws and Customs of War on Land authorize reprisals anywhere in their text. If these are not the treaties you had in mind, please let me know.

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Post by Xanthro » 02 Oct 2003 01:53

Germania wrote:In your comments I see that you have an hard meaning about what you say for me it is nonsense! You belief more in articles and writings from people never talked with this persons than in the words of the people which imprisoned!


Why should the word of a convicted criminal matter more than the transcripts of the actions of the trial? The criminal had the opportunity to speak at his trial.

Germania wrote:In the Landkriegsordnung is written that execution (Geiselerschiessung) is legitimated!

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

Germania wrote:Why not ask him fear not interested in truth? Or better belief the winner theorie?


One, I don't except convicted criminals to tell the truth.
Two, in the case, he as to the law, he can only testify what he THOUGHT was the law at the time. His actions violated International Law, he was tried and convicted.

Quite often people say, "I didn't know it was against the law" It's why the phrase, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" exists.


Germania wrote:Factual basics about it which persons tell or told this factual basics?

You've provided no factual proof of anything. It's your opinion that if people speak to him somehow they will be convinced of his innocence. That's not a fact, that's a personal opinion.

Germania wrote:Person who stand beside him or what? Autosuggestion works well with people who always hear only one side of the whole story or do you ever speak with somebody or believe in informations about the other side?


The court heard his side and convicted him. I don't need to hear his side unless someone can provide information as to how the court erred legally.

Germania wrote:Allied warcrimes! I think you host this part of the forum look in it an find some warcrimes from murder about rape, mass killing, build up death camps, bombing of cities in last months of war, etc. I know to less facts for you!


When you say Allied Warcrimes, this is nothing more than an appeal to emotion. There are no facts, no basis by which to compare. Saying, others committed crimes and weren't punished, doesn't in the least negate the criminal behavior that took place here.

Germania wrote:Think there always two sides in every thing exists and you believe in the one side and I believe in the other, history someday show who of you is right!


Spoken like a true believer, the courts are on the side of guilt, and you've shown no evidence to even attempt to counter it.

It is not personall as long as you are not personall against me but nobody of us does 100% know what really acts at this time and so I don´t think that we can find an ultimativ way for understand each other!


You don't need 100% knowledge to determine guilt. As you said, nobody has 100% knowledge, do you really think nobody should EVER be convicted of a crime? That's what you are arguing here.

Xanthro

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Post by Dan » 02 Oct 2003 02:04

Well, David, you spend much of your time here on this forum, but I guess it has paid off from an intellectual stand point in that you really have familiarized yourself with much of the legal arcania surrounding the IMT and related trials.

Good work.

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Post by David Thompson » 02 Oct 2003 03:33

Thanks, Dan. I respect your opinion, and hope that the arcana (an apt description) isn't too boring.

For interested readers, there are some very thought-provoking discussions of the right of reprisal as it existed during WWII in the UN War Crimes Commission Reports of the British trials of Field Marshal Kesselring, of Generals von Mackensen and Maelzer, and of the American trial of Field Marshal List and other German general officers in the "Hostage Case," available on line at:

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/WCC/kesselring.htm

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/WCC/mackensen.htm

and

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/WCC/List1.htm

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Post by Luca » 02 Oct 2003 09:55

David Thompson wrote:Luca -- You said:
In the Article 29 of the Aja covention was write that was prohibited the attak of men in uniform of an army if the attakers was without dressing an uniform and be members of another army, and for actions of this typ the repraisal of 10 men every 1 dead was permitted.


I'm assuming that "Aja" is the Italian name of the Hague (den Haag) in the Netherlands, where the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907 dealing with the Laws and Customs of War on Land were held, and your reference is to Article 29 of one of these conventions.
......

Neither of the two Hague conventions dealing with the Laws and Customs of War on Land authorize reprisals anywhere in their text. If these are not the treaties you had in mind, please let me know.


Yes, Aja is Haag.
Im no so young now, but appare that i make again and again the same mistakes.
Infact i have give trust at the partisan version.
In a long italian TV program of some years ago Rosario Bentivegna that was the man that put with her hands the bomb in Via Rasella, say what i have write before concern the Aja laws and also affirm that the right of repraisal was well know from the GAP before the attak.
.....
D.(journalist ask): Ma l'Articolo 29 della Convenzione dell'Aja non affermava che era proibito attaccare uomini in divisa di un esercito senza avere una divisa e far parte di un altro esercito, e che azioni di questo tipo comportavano poi la rappresaglia con uno a dieci ?

R.(the hero reply): Guardi, due cose: primo, sì, esiste questo articolo e lo sapevamo, e lo so. Si trattava di dire che non dovevamo fare la Resistenza. Le rappresaglie... quell'Articolo indica anche come devono essere fatte le rappresaglie, e non è stato questo il modo in cui l'hanno fatta i Tedeschi.
Difatti, si dice in genere che Kappler è stato condannato soltanto per 5 uomini in più che ha ammazzato.
Non è esatto. Kappler è stato condannato per i 5 uomini in più non perché i 330 corrispondessero al diritto di rappresaglia, ma perché, essendosi egli appellato al fatto di aver eseguito un ordine, l'ordine era che ne uccidesse solo 330, mentre invece ne aveva uccisi 335. Quindi non c'è stato il riconoscimento della legittimità dell'ordine, ma il fatto che lui ha sopravanzato l'ordine stesso.
..........

What Bentivegna no say is that Palmiro Togliatti, the bigger boss of the comunists formations of the time, after long time in Russia, arrive via Africa with a navy and the 23 March, fascist national day (anniversary of the Fasci and of the Corprations, the day of the Rasella attak), Togliatti was in the Mediterraneo sea. Infact he depart from Africa some days before and stay long days in the sea, what he wait is unknow.
When he arrive in Italy in Salerno the 24 March, all the no comunists partisans formations of Roma have the head cut. Also some comunists opponents was killed in Ardeatine repraisal.
One of the ex GAP named Blasi,(that the GAP have the order of kill if was possible) affirm in the trail against Kappler, that he personally see a write order with the autorization for the Rasella attak, the order was signed E. E. The partisan alias of Palmiro Togliatti was Ercole Ercoli.
Luca

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