How [many] Jews were killed for real?

Gen. Erwin Rommel · Post by **Gen. Erwin Rommel** » 09 Oct 2003 18:26

Guys i one friend of mine gave me a picture with something that looked prety wired, i would like to know how true is it.

Acording to what i saw in 1933 in Europe were 5,6 Millions Jews.
But from 5 600 000 Millions, 1 440 000 Millions escaped between 1933 and 1945 from Germany and the ocupied territorys.
Another 413 128 were living in Neutral contries.
This makes the number came down to 3 746 872.
Another 1 550 000 were in ares controled by the USSR
The number came down to 2 196 872.
And not all the Jews, were killed during the war.

This is true, or it's just a crazy story?

This is not a Hollocaust Denial! I know it happend, but i just wana know how many people died for real.

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 09 Oct 2003 18:35

Gen. -- There are a lot of numbers out there, all of them estimates. A Google search should give you an idea of the range of the estimates, and what the estimates are based on. That way, you can pick and choose which estimate seems to be most realistic to you.

Hans Ã–stermann · Post by **Hans Ã–stermann** » 09 Oct 2003 18:40

You will never know the truth, just thin in some books the count's are 5 million jews some say 6 million jews but what about all the jews killed in ghettos and in other places.

Regards.
Hans.

Michael Miller · Post by **Michael Miller** » 09 Oct 2003 19:32

Here is an excerpt from the minutes of the Wannsee Conference (20 January 1942):

Approximately 11 million Jews will be involved in the final solution of the European Jewish question, distributed as follows among the individual countries:

A. Germany proper 131,800
Austria 43,700
Eastern territories 420,000
General Government 2,284,000
Bialystok 400,000
Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia 74,200
Estonia - free of Jews -
Latvia 3,500
Lithuania 34,000
Belgium 43,000
Denmark 5,600
France / occupied territory 165,000
unoccupied territory 700,000
Greece 69,600
Netherlands 160,800
Norway 1,300

B. Bulgaria 48,000
England 330,000
Finland 2,300
Ireland 4,000
Italy including Sardinia 58,000
Albania 200
Croatia 40,000
Portugal 3,000
Rumania including Bessarabia 342,000
Sweden 8,000
Switzerland 18,000
Serbia 10,000
Slovakia 88,000
Spain 6,000
Turkey (European portion) 55,500
Hungary 742,800
USSR 5,000,000
Ukraine 2,994,684
White Russia
excluding Bialystok 446,484

Total over 11,000,000

Redbaron1908 · Post by **Redbaron1908** » 09 Oct 2003 21:30

Thanks for posting that Michael, I had never seen the figures that they made up and talked about at the wannese Conference.

Pumpkin · Post by **Pumpkin** » 11 Oct 2003 00:59

So, exactly half or 5½ of the 11 million were according to this list living in pre-war Soviet. Many of them might never have fallen into nazi hands, I suppose. Nor the 330.000 in England.

I assume that the 3 mio in Ukraina is a part of the 5 mio in USSR. (Why is the 3 mio of Ukraina so rediculously exact? Some extra pedantic bureaucrat responsible for that figure maybe)

Surprising (to me) to learn that there were so many jews in France, and not so few in England either. For what this list is worth anyway, considering for instance the definition of "jew".

Ostuf Charlemagne · Post by **Ostuf Charlemagne** » 11 Oct 2003 04:56

Well,well ,well....a really good question. But first let's see the numbers of living jews according the the so -called ''Wannsee Conference'':

- It's not even sure if the wannsee conference happened at all...lot of theories,documents ,and even movies (''Conspiracy'') ,but not even the holocaustists agree on this fact.For instance the ''Conspiracy '' movie says that the House in Wannsee belonged to deported jews.... but in a book i have on WW2 ,it's said that this house was the former german office of the Interpol !

- Even if the Wabnnsee conference took place ,we are not sure what was the real topic of the conference ,and there is also differences about who was there and who wasn't ....

- If everything is true,there is always the fact that i wonder how they figured this number of jews in France. There is 66,000 jews in France TODAY and between 50/ or 60,000 were deported during the war ( most didn't died in deportation) so......... there is only 66,000 of their sons,grandsons......??????????????

About the Holocaust number..... it's seems we have definitely an inflation with the years...just like the $ in poor third world coutries !
: - when i was a child in school the ''oficial'' number was 2,700.000
(deads jews in the KZ )

- then in a book ''El Tercer Reich'' Edit.Bruguera ,Spain 1980,spanish translation of german original from 1965,it's said : 4.000.000

- then Mr. Wiesenthal showed up with the biased number of 6.000.000. jews and 5 millions ''goims''......

Personally i don't know. Neither do i give a shit. But yes,they get an inflation,there.... it's surely the best way to provocate revisionism.At last Mrs Holocaustits will have to be smarter and agree on a standard number.

Peter H · Post by **Peter H** » 11 Oct 2003 05:16

France's Jewish citizens number around the half million mark.

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 11 Oct 2003 05:33

Ostuf -- You said:

It's not even sure if the wannsee conference happened at all...lot of theories,documents ,and even movies (''Conspiracy'') ,but not even the holocaustists agree on this fact.For instance the ''Conspiracy '' movie says that the House in Wannsee belonged to deported jews.... but in a book i have on WW2 ,it's said that this house was the former german office of the Interpol !

What does the ownership of the house have to do with whether the conference took place?

- Even if the Wabnnsee conference took place ,we are not sure what was the real topic of the conference ,and there is also differences about who was there and who wasn't ....

You can find links to the minutes of the Wannsee conference, as well as Adolf Eichmann's testimony about attending it, at:

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopi ... ht=wannsee

About the Holocaust number..... it's seems we have definitely an inflation with the years...just like the $ in poor third world coutries !
: - when i was a child in school the ''oficial'' number was 2,700.000
(deads jews in the KZ )

- then in a book ''El Tercer Reich'' Edit.Bruguera ,Spain 1980,spanish translation of german original from 1965,it's said : 4.000.000

- then Mr. Wiesenthal showed up with the biased number of 6.000.000. jews and 5 millions ''goims''......

Personally i don't know. Neither do i give a shit. But yes,they get an inflation,there.... it's surely the best way to provocate revisionism.At last Mrs Holocaustits will have to be smarter and agree on a standard number.

Is a mass murderer less guilty if he only killed 27 persons instead of 60 persons?

Christoph Awender · Post by **Christoph Awender** » 11 Oct 2003 05:45

Ostuf.. I am also interested in your "Wannsee-Konferenz" denial. Do you really think all these scripts, documents, invitation letters and correspondence of and about the conference are faked??

\Christoph

michael mills · Post by **michael mills** » 11 Oct 2003 14:32

Pumpkin wrote:

So, exactly half or 5½ of the 11 million were according to this list living in pre-war Soviet. Many of them might never have fallen into nazi hands, I suppose. Nor the 330.000 in England.

I assume that the 3 mio in Ukraina is a part of the 5 mio in USSR. (Why is the 3 mio of Ukraina so rediculously exact? Some extra pedantic bureaucrat responsible for that figure maybe)

Surprising (to me) to learn that there were so many jews in France, and not so few in England either. For what this list is worth anyway, considering for instance the definition of "jew".

The statistics on the Jewish population of Europe included in the Wannsee Protocol are manifestly exaggerated; most historians concede that, and do not take them seriously.

It is quite easy to see where the exaggeration occurs; it is in the figures for the Soviet Union and Poland, which Pumpkin quite correctly notes make up the bulk of the alleged 11 million total. If we add up the figures for the different components of the Soviet Union and Poland, we get the following total:

Soviet Union 5.000 million
Generalgouvernement 2.284 million
Eastern Territories 0.420 million
Bialystok 0.400 million

TOTAL 8.104 million

Now, the 5.0 million given for the Soviet Union includes the Jewish populations of the territories annexed in 1939 from Poland, and in 1940 from the Baltic States and Romania. Since for the purposes of calculation we are considering only the Jews of the Soviet Union and Poland, we need to exclude the Jews of the Baltic States and the territories seized from Romania (Bessarabia and Bukovina); these totalled approximately 0.5 million (0.25 million for both areas).

Deducting 0.5 million from 8.1 million leaves 7.6 million. That figure may be compared with the true total for the Soviet Union and Poland.

According to the Soviet census of 1939, there were just over three million persons of Jewish nationality in the country at that date. However, it is known that the census was falsified to hide the massive population losses due to the famines and purges of the 1930s. It is not known how many Jews there really were, however defined, but we can adopt three million as a ball-park figure.

The last Polish pre-war census gave two different figures for the total number of Jews, 2.8 million by nationality (defined as speakers of the Jewish languages Yiddish and Hebrew) and 3.1 million by religion. Again, it is known that the Polish census was falsified in order to minimise the size of the dissident ethnic minorities (Ukrainians, Belorussians, Germans). Again, we can adopt three million as a ball-park figure.

Thus, we arrive at 6.0 million as the total for the Soviet Union and Poland. The derived total in the Wannsee Protocol of 7.6 million is therefore exaggerated by 1.6 million. Deducting 1.6 million from the alleged Europe-wide total of 11 million leaves 9.4 million.

Furthermore, the figures for France are also grossly exaggerated. The Wannsee Protocol gives the following total:

Occupied France 165,000
Unoccupied France 700,000

TOTAL 865,000

In fact, it is known that the toal number of Jews in France in 1940 was about 340,000, including French citizens and refugees from Germany, the Netherlands and Belgium, and resident aliens from a number of countries.

Accordingly, the Wannsee Protocol's figure for France is exaggerated by about 525,000. Deducting that number from our adjusted Europe-wide total of 9.7 million leaves a new adjusted total of 9.175 million.

However, that adjusted total is not an accurate guide to the number of Jews who might have perished at German hands, since it includes countries that were never occupied by Germany; they need to be deducted, as follows:

England 330,000
Ireland 4,000
Finland 2,300
Sweden 8,000
Portugal 3,000
Switzerland 18,000
Spain 6,000
Turkey 55,500

TOTAL 426,800

Deducting that total for unoccupied countries from the adjusted Europe-wide total of 9.175 million leaves 8.748 million as the pool of potential victims.

A further adjustment needs to be made. The above total includes the entire Jewish population of the Soviet Union, but it is well-known that only the western part of that country was occupied by Germany, and furthermore a large number of Jews from the areas that were eventually occupied were evacuated by the Soviet authorities or fled before the Germans arrived.

The figure for Soviet Jews who never fell into German hands needs to be deducted. Some authorities such as Hilberg postulate that a good three million Jews survived in the Soviet Union, and that can be used as a reasoanble ball-park figure.

Deducting 3.0 million from 8.748 million leaves 5.748 million. That is the absolute maximum of the Jews who fell into German hands, and therefore could have been killed by them. However, there was a considerable number of Jewish survivors at the end of the war in the German-occupied territories. A by no means exhaustive calculation of the survivors includes:

France at least 260,000
Hungary at least 200,000
Romania at least 400,000

TOTAL at least 860,000

Deducting 860,000 from 5,748,000 leaves 4.888 million as the ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM number of Jews who could have perished at German hands. That figure would need to be adjusted downward to take account of Jewish survivors in other formerly occupied countries; for example, I have not included any figure for Polish Jews who survived, but their number is reliably estimated by historians as in the low hundreds of thousands, perhaps more than half a million.

In summary, I conclude that the total number of Jews who perished due to German actions could not be much more than four million. The canonical six million accordingly represents a 50% exaggeration.

Dan · Post by **Dan** » 11 Oct 2003 14:50

Thanks, now I see more clearly where you come up with the 4 million number. You would have to further subtract those thousands of Jews still in Germany at the end of the war.

Ostuf Charlemagne · Post by **Ostuf Charlemagne** » 12 Oct 2003 02:18

Christoph .... you obviously don't read well.I never denying the Wannsee conference because i simply don't know about this matter.... why am i not informed ? Just because most holocaustists books shows different versions,wich is not my guilt ! So i metionate the anecdote about the house just to demostrate the many existing different versions,Thompson.

Btw,thanks for the link...i will study it with more time and comeback on it if i find something disturbing.

Now about the inflated numbers of jews dying in KZ,i gone comeback with some disturbing clasified documents i will scan ...i know Thompson like them.Give me a couple of days,we are not over ,here.!

Moulded : F..ck ! They are that much !?

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 12 Oct 2003 02:42

Ostuf -- I'd love to see the scans, but I don't want to see sentiments like:

Moulded : F..ck ! They are that much !?

Avoid that kind of talk or you will be tossed out of the forum so fast your hair will blow.

Ostuf Charlemagne · Post by **Ostuf Charlemagne** » 12 Oct 2003 02:53

OK...but i have very short hairs

Axis History Forum

How [many] Jews were killed for real?

How [many] Jews were killed for real?

Wannsee Statistics