LSSAH War Crimes 1939-1945

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Minotauros
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LSSAH War Crimes 1939-1945

Post by Minotauros » 26 Oct 2003 19:38

Dear Friends !

There are three well known cases of war crimes committed by the soldiers of the 1.SS-Panzer Division "LSSAH" between 1939 and 1945:

1-The Le Paradis farm massacre on 28 May 1940 when soldiers under SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Wilhelm Mohnke murdered about 65 British soldiers from the Warwickshire Regiment.

2-The Taganrog Order, issued on 17 October 1941 by SS-Gruppenfuehrer Josef Dietrich, and which cost the Red Army soldiers more than 4.000 dead (murdered during three days after their surrender).

3-The Malmedy massacre on 17 December 1944, when soldiers under SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Joachim Peiper murdered 81 US POWs.

Are there other documented war crimes committed by the soldiers of this elite Waffen SS division during the war ?

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Post by Germania » 26 Oct 2003 19:53

Well known crimes!? I think no because there are always other points of view about this "crimes"! :idea:

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Post by David Thompson » 26 Oct 2003 20:42

Germania -- What are you trying to say? That these incidents never happened? That the incidents did happen, but that they weren't crimes? That the incidents happened, and were crimes, but members of the LAH didn't commit them? How about giving the readers something to work with? If there are other points of view, why not document them?

Minotauros -- Some of the previous threads in this section of the forum discussing the Malmedy massacres may be found at:

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=32364
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=25613
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=23296
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=24329
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=13824
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=11445
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=5825
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=280

The Le Paradis killings are discussed at:

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=21368

Another massacre, in the area of Boves, Italy is discussed at:

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=10754

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Post by Panzermahn » 27 Oct 2003 05:34

1-The Le Paradis farm massacre on 28 May 1940 when soldiers under SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Wilhelm Mohnke murdered about 65 British soldiers from the Warwickshire Regiment.

2-The Taganrog Order, issued on 17 October 1941 by SS-Gruppenfuehrer Josef Dietrich, and which cost the Red Army soldiers more than 4.000 dead (murdered during three days after their surrender).
For crime number 1, isn't is the men from 2nd Royal Norfolks that the Totenkopf company under Obersturmfuhrer Knoechlein massacred?
there are allegations that the British used dum-dum bullets which cause the horrible injuries to the SS men,


For crime number 2, horrible as is but your forgetting that Sepp Dietrich issued that order as a reprisal for 6 SS men horribly mutilated and tortured by the Russians...the reprisal actions are certainly severe and are against the internationl law for disproportionate revenge shooting but the Waffen SS commanders would not issue such order without any reasons

-The Malmedy massacre on 17 December 1944, when soldiers under SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Joachim Peiper murdered 81 US POWs
The specific malmedy massacre by the LSSAH happened due to the apprehension of the young SS troopers guarding a large number of US POWs which seemed to them as an escape attempt by the POWs

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Post by Germania » 27 Oct 2003 16:59

David Thompson wrote:Germania -- What are you trying to say? That these incidents never happened? That the incidents did happen, but that they weren't crimes? That the incidents happened, and were crimes, but members of the LAH didn't commit them? How about giving the readers something to work with? If there are other points of view, why not document them?

Minotauros -- Some of the previous threads in this section of the forum discussing the Malmedy massacres may be found at:

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=32364
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=25613
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=23296
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=24329
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=13824
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=11445
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=5825
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=280

The Le Paradis killings are discussed at:

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=21368

Another massacre, in the area of Boves, Italy is discussed at:

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=10754
I have another point of view about Malmedy massacre I never said that nothing happend but for me it wasn´t the form of crime which is told bzw. it was no crime in this form because the whole case is based on an "Missverständniss" not under "Willkür" or planed! Sorry the words in"" I don´t knowe in english! I read different statements about this case and the statements out of "Der Freiwillige" sounds logical for me than the other statements!

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Post by David Thompson » 27 Oct 2003 17:38

Germania -- Thanks for your reply. I gather you're saying that the Malmedy killings -- at least the ones at the Baugnez crossroads -- were the result of a misunderstanding or mistake, and not the result of a willful murder order.

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Post by Peter » 27 Oct 2003 19:56

Panzermahn is correct Le Paradis was TOTENKOPF, you are thinking of WORMHOUDT for Leibstandarte.

Try reading Hitlers Last General by Ian Sayer which has some material on Mohnke.

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Post by Germania » 28 Oct 2003 16:58

David Thompson wrote:Germania -- Thanks for your reply. I gather you're saying that the Malmedy killings -- at least the ones at the Baugnez crossroads -- were the result of a misunderstanding or mistake, and not the result of a willful murder order.
Yes that´s it! 8O

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Post by Peter » 28 Oct 2003 17:35

Germania

I do not understand why some folks try to explain away or excuse these incidents, they are history and cannot be changed.

It is a fact that LSSAH ,Das Reich and 12 SS HJ were involved in the execution of Allied Prisoners of War 1944-45 just as it is also a fact that the US Army, British, French and Canadian Armies killed Waffen-SS prisoners.

It is equally wrong.

I placed some information on here about six months ago, there were massacres-crimes- on both sides and my current thinking is that maybe the numbers of deaths of military prisoners was almost equal - equal in numbers and certainly equal in criminality, both sides did wrong.

If anything I now believe that 1944-45 probably saw the murder of more German Prisoners than Allied prisoners. Unfortunately in war these things happen and as I was not there I do not think I am qualified to sit in judgement on combat soldiers who killed each other.

I believe that this type of crime is wrong but totally different from the Holocaust.

Pete

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Post by chalutzim » 29 Oct 2003 20:23

Iltis wrote:[...] my current thinking is that maybe the numbers of deaths of military prisoners was almost equal - equal in numbers and certainly equal in criminality, both sides did wrong.[...]
I guess you're not taking in your calculation the Russians, right?
Iltis wrote:[...] I do not think I am qualified to sit in judgement on combat soldiers who killed each other.[...]
Again I make the question above.

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Post by Peter » 29 Oct 2003 21:20

Hi Chalutzim
Based on the incidents which were quoted on the outset it appears that we are talking about the Western Front .

I did SPECIFICALLY state 1944-45 and made reference only to the US, Canadian, British and French who fought only on the Western Front.

I believe that the two theatres of operation are impossible to compare, they were two different wars.

Pete

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Post by Peter » 29 Oct 2003 21:20

Hi Chalutzim
Based on the incidents which were quoted on the outset it appears that we are talking about the Western Front .

I did SPECIFICALLY state 1944-45 and made reference only to the US, Canadian, British and French who fought only on the Western Front.

I believe that the two theatres of operation are impossible to compare, they were two different wars.

Pete

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Post by Peter » 29 Oct 2003 21:37

Just noted TAGANROG, I missed that first time around.

I am speaking only about the WEST though Chalutzim
cheers
Pete

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Post by c.g. » 29 Oct 2003 22:19

Apparently two main bodies of atrocities were perpetrated by LSSAH units in northern Italy in 1943: One group in north-western Italy, a second group in Istria. The first group is well known. Two cases belong to it:
1: The Boves killing of 23 civilians following skirmishes between SS men (III.(gep.)/Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment 2 LSSAH) and Italian soldiers (no civilians from Boves involved in the fights before the executions) on September 19th.
2: The multiple murders of Jews perpetrated between 17 and 24 September and again between 9 and 11 October in Méina and in other places on Lago Maggiore. There, a battalion of the Leibstandarte (I./Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment 2 LSSAH) , which had moved into quarters on the western bank of Lago Maggiore, came upon several Jewish families, who were then arrested. In the course of the following days, members of the battalion murdered them. Some of the bodies of the 54 victims of the massacre were sunk in the lake’s waters and some were buried in mass graves in the nearby woods.
The following story, However, doesn’t seems to be already known: In February 1944 a German deserter from II./SS-Pz.Rgt.2 LAH run over to British troops near Orsogna and was interrogated. He stated to have “heard of various executions carried out by Oberscharführer VOGT on orders of Sturmbannführer SANDIG” when he was in Turin. He also stated that he
“actually saw two civilians and six escaped British PW dead in the cellar. The bodies were afterwards taken by Russians (attached to SS Div LAH for menial tasks) on lorries to be thrown into the river. The bodies were robbed.” (US NARA, RG 165, Entry 179, CSDIC Reports).
Since the German POW had occasionally lied, the British interrogation officers didn’t trust him completely (however they seemed to consider the atrocity stories more reliable then other, more strictly military parts of the testimony). On the other hand, according to the official records of the Medical Examiner Office in Turin, bodies of killed allied POW were actually recovered from the river in that period (hands tied beyond the back and car batteries hanging from their bodies as weights). So this story is most likely true.

The second group of killings of civilians took place in October 1943 during IInd SS-Panzerkorps operations in Istria. It is interesting to note, that most cases are located in areas in which LSSAH troops were operating, particularly in the province of Pola/Pula.
The following cases may have been perpetrated by LSSAH units:
2-11 October, Brgndac-Pinguente, 37 civilians
4 October, Nova Vas, 18 civilians
6-7 October, Arsa-Albona, 60 civilians
7 October, Kresini-Gimino, 58 civilians
9 October, Krmed-Rovigno, 31 civilians
10 October, Abrega di Parenzo, 10 partisans shot
16 October, Kanfanar, 26 civilians

C.G.

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Post by Peter » 30 Oct 2003 10:06

HI CG

thats really useful information, does the NARA document mention the names of the British Prisoners of war, if it does I will be able to check their details and post some confirmations.

cheers
Pete

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