Finland and "Final Solution" in WWII?

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 22 Nov 2003 10:32

Hi Erik!

Actually I haven´t read the book, just some quotes from it.
There are several books in Finland that have something about the Estonian volunteers in Finland. Do you read Finnish?
I agree 100% what you wrote about the motives of E. Sana

Regards, Juha

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Toivo
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Post by Toivo » 22 Nov 2003 11:04

Sadly not though I have taken course few years ago due work. But as I had not much chance to practice even basic knowledge has faded away. Besides time sets it's limits :(

Regards

Hurricane
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Re: Last nickel

Post by Hurricane » 22 Nov 2003 13:57

Aleksei, your post really added nothing of value. Instead of actually confirming your figures with known sources, you give some sweeping hints of "look it up yourself". Not very helpful, IMHO.
Aleksei22 wrote:Hello, Hurricane
Please, find below my last nickel.
______________________________________

Quote:

What you do you mean when you say “mostly failed” ? Hundreds of Thousands of
carabines, pistols, granades, .... tonns of illegal vodka transferred thrue the OPEN
Finnish and ABSOLUTELY (for finn) formal border into Russia - are REALLY
“mostly failed” ? What value of this “goods” would SELFCONSISTENT to you to
say “ .... that was a good deal” !!! Onee million, Six million, Ten million carabines,
pistols, granades, .... million tonns of illegal vodka .... ????


Source please.

________________________________________

Please, ask a "colored detailes" from first hand vitness -

K. Zilliakys or members of his family

(he was a leader of prominent and rich finnish
activist groupe (with strong swedish roots)).

The Same "colored detailes" for those "actions"
you can find in reports and memoirs of the Former
Japaneese Military Attache at Stockholm (mister Akashi).

OR

in memoirs of the prominent banker from USA
(with jewish roots ).
You may ask his name from Mark-V.
I am 201% sure - he knows his name.

Thank you, and

Good luck.
Since most people on this forum don't have the chance to talk to members of K. Zilliacus' family, I will give a short summary of his activities here (more information in the book "Grafton-affären" by K-G Olin).

Konni Zilliacus had when the russification started moved to Stockholm, where he was out of the reach of the Russians. He was editor of the newsletter "Vapaa Sanaa" (Free Speech), which he smuggled to Finland. The paper had articles trying to mobilise the people into a rebellion against the Russians.

When the Russo-Japanese was broke out in 1904, Zilliacus' idea was to co-operate with the Japanese and break free from Russia while they were busy in the east. Z. tried to unite the different exile-Russian revolutionaries scattered around Europe, and he managed to organise a congress in Paris in October 1904.

These contacts, however, meant the the Finnish resitance got scattered into two parts, the constitutional, who wanted to continue using legal methods and only civil disobeyence (with Leo Mechelin as front figure), and the radicals, who planned more direct terrorist actions.

In April 1905 a new congress is held in Geneve, and more concrete plans on an uprising against the emperor are made, since Zilliacus gets news that the working class in St.Petersburg are ready to revolt. Together with the news that Japan could finance the operation, and in June contracts for 15,560 rifles; 2,5 million bullets; 3 tons of explosives; 2,500 revolvers and also a batch of 10,000 rifles and a million bullets to used in Georgia.

In London, the Japanese envoy in Stockholm, Akashi, buys the steamer John Grafton. The plan was to sail to the Finnish gulf, then load most of the weapons onto two smaller ships, which would continue to St.Petersburg, where 12,000 men from the GAPO labor organisation would be armed, and start the rebellion.The small force was not expected to manage very much, but it was hoped it would ignite a country-wide rebellion.

However, the plan had quickly to be changed, and it was instead decided that all the cargo would be unloaded in several small batches at different places in Ostrobothnia, up in the Baltic Gulf. The weapons were then to be smuggled into St.Petersburg by road.

Only a small part of the cargo had been unloaded when John Garfton was ran ashore, and in order to not let the cargo get into Russian hands, the ship is blown up using some of the explosives on board. Most of the weapons are either destroyed or confiscated by the Russians.

So while the smuggling was a disaster, it had a big psychological effect on the Russians, who believed hordes of smuggling ships approached a Finland armed to the teeth. At the end of September 1905 a flyer is distributed in Helsinki warning for an imminent bloodshed. This prompts the whole Russian Baltic fleet to park itself outside Helsinki for over a week. Rumors say a Finnish army of 20,000 trained soldiers already is organised. When the general strike that started in St.Petersburg in October 1905 spreads to Helsinki, the Russian governor, Ivan Obolenskij, doesn't dare to react, since he had received reports of 75,000 rifles now having been smuggled to Finland.

At the beginning of 1906, a second smuggling ship, the "Peter" brought 2,500 rifles and 1,2 million bullets to Finland, and Russian spies now report that 200,000 Finns now would be armed and organised. In reality, only a coupled of hundred Finns were active.

Olin speculates in his book, that if "John Grafton" had made it to St.Petersburg, the revolution might have started in 1905 instead of 1917. By that time the bolsheviks were not very strong, and a revoltion would most probably have been crushed, giving Russia the chance to change in a more democratic direction.

So, Aleksei's claims about "Hundreds of Thousands of carabines, pistols, granades, .... tonns of illegal vodka transferred thrue the OPEN Finnish and ABSOLUTELY (for finn) formal border into Russia" has no basis in reality. It should also be noted, that Zilliacus worked without the support of the political leadership in Finland, or the majority of Finns overall.

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Last nickel

Post by Juha Tompuri » 22 Nov 2003 15:02

Hurricane, thanks for your input.
Hurricane wrote:So, Aleksei's claims about "Hundreds of Thousands of carabines, pistols, granades, .... tonns of illegal vodka transferred thrue the OPEN Finnish and ABSOLUTELY (for finn) formal border into Russia" has no basis in reality.
I think Aleksei bases his claims to this source, he has presented to us:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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Sotka
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Post by Sotka » 22 Nov 2003 19:39

ErikHolm wrote:In 1944+ those who were given out (I know one other source which were based on memoirs) by VAPO to soviets
I think it's good to remember what VAPO was after war when it returned estonians back. Most of it's places were manned with finnish diehard communists and I think that VAPO was just 'tool' of USSR comission.

Hurricane
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Re: Last nickel

Post by Hurricane » 23 Nov 2003 13:54

Juha Tompuri wrote:Hurricane, thanks for your input.
Hurricane wrote:So, Aleksei's claims about "Hundreds of Thousands of carabines, pistols, granades, .... tonns of illegal vodka transferred thrue the OPEN Finnish and ABSOLUTELY (for finn) formal border into Russia" has no basis in reality.
I think Aleksei bases his claims to this source, he has presented to us:
I see. Too bad I don't understand russian. :oops:

Aleksei22
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well starded , but .....

Post by Aleksei22 » 23 Nov 2003 14:01

Hello, Hurricane


Well, well .. I got a lot of pleasure while start to read your post.
The "Start" of it is WELL, but "FINAL" …..
__________________just_look_here_what_you_say______
…..
So, Aleksei's claims about "Hundreds of Thousands
of carabines, pistols, granades, .... tonns
of illegal vodka transferred thrue the OPEN Finnish
and ABSOLUTELY (for finn) formal
border into Russia" has no basis in reality.
________________________________________________


….. hmmmm ….I cannot find any word to "weight" and even estimate
the validity of this conclusion.

OKed !!!
Let we stay it as you say it - for a while …..

Why ?

Because I am sure that REAL FINAL will be as more as exelent ….






Harricane, may I ask you some new questions to understand what you
wrote? or what you wanted to say ? or what you NOT wanted to say ?


1. - You gave us only one "documented" evidence associated with finnish
criminal weapons rote to Russia (via Finland). Does it means that
YOU PERSONALLY SERTIFY that it was UNIQUE and only ONE
ACCIDENTAL case of criminal ROTE, organized by Finish citizen with a
"little help" of of organized groupe from Finland, Sweden, France, UK, etc ?

2. - Does it (what you say) means that NO-ONE-MORE-OTHER
"documented" evidences for such kind of criminal activities
existed in ANY other finnish books (or sweedish or some others). I mean
books associated with THE official (state or some personal )
view at HISTORY of Finland in 1895-1917 (and Finland-Russia relations too )?

3. Who were the "other" people whom took part in this deal (Zilliacus case with John Grafton + "Peter") ? May I ask you to publish more names? nationality and citizenship ? Who gave a money to cover so large expences ? sorry, money was REALLY transferred by japaneese hand but it was money from a loan. How much it was ? Who was a former OWNERS of this ships ?

4. - May I ask you to familase me with some detailes about Finnish and Russian LEGAL CODES (1895-1917), which covered this kind of CRIMINAL ACTIVITY (CONTRABANDA/SMUGGLING). Did ANY principal difference existed (between Finnish and Russian LEGAL CODES) in qualification of this kind of criminality ? Did any difference existed in LEGAL PUNISHMEN for this kind of criminality ?


5. - May I ask you to familaze me with an official HISTORICAL qualification of Zilliacus + Ko activity (case with John Grafton + "Peter"). As it written in finnish official History books. Who is he ?
- CRIMINAL ? GANGSTER ? KILLER ? BRAVE-SMUGGLER? FINNISH ROBIN-GOOD ? FREEDOM-FIGHTER or (may be) FREEDOM-SPEECH-WRITER ?


6. - Please, give us more details about this congress and personal contacts of Zilliacus associated with
_____________________________________________________
In April 1905 a new congress is held in Geneve, and more concrete plans on an uprising
against the emperor are made,
____________________________________________________

7. -
_____________________________________
It should also be noted, that Zilliacus worked
without the support of the political leadership
in Finland, or the majority of Finns overall.
_____________________________________


Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh - yeaaaaaaaaaa !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I know this typical westernee theory as well.


PS. - Three years ago British landmine instructor was killed in Chechnja.
The criminal (bandits) rote ( from Georgia /Tbilisi/ ) was broken and large amount
of british-produced landmines were seized. The answer upon official request to British
government was absolutely the same : -" it was …. private personal activity and private
properties(landmines) of some branch of british private enterprises" . Is't ????????

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh - yeaaaaaaaaaa !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I like it !!!!!!


Thank you.

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Harri
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Post by Harri » 23 Nov 2003 14:12

Sorry that this comes a bit late...
ErikHolm wrote:And about apology - you know what I ment.
Well.. :oops: ...now I understand well what you meant.

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Toivo
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Post by Toivo » 23 Nov 2003 14:32

True Sotka.

Yes Harri I ment official apology from goverment but I think in about sixty years it's pretty much forgiven and forgotten anyways.

Hmm why you guys bother argue with Aleksei, I'm amazed. Why don't you just ignore him...?
Or could Aleksei maybe say in one understandable sentence what does he trying to prove? :idea:

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Harri
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Post by Harri » 23 Nov 2003 15:06

Aleksei, you should finally tell us what is your point?

It is already quite clear that you know what we will answer and are prepared to continue this off topic discussion with your "own theories" which are probably mostly based on certain ideology ( :roll: ). You miss our sources (of course) but you don't show or mention us any of yours. That would be necessary to see if your claims are based on reliable sources.

Almost any of your "accusations" and "theories" would need a thread of their own to be handled thoroughly enough.

----

Jari, Juha, Erik, Mark etc: don't bother anymore. It is useless.

Erik, actually Finland had no choice, so the blame should be found from more east of us... the order came from there.

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Toivo
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Post by Toivo » 23 Nov 2003 17:34

Looks Aleksei is hopeless case.

I understand it was only option for Finland to give out estonians yo SU in 1944. VAPO or not they were not in position to argue ... sadly. Stalin could have used every excuse to set new pressures on Finland I bet.

Regards

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Harri
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Post by Harri » 24 Nov 2003 00:28

Hundreds of Estonians and former "tribe soldiers" also escaped before their relieving to USSR, so at least Finnish sentries did their best... :lol:

----

BTW I suggest not to talk about VAPO = Valtion Polttoaineosuuskunta [State Fuel Co-operative Society], but Valpo = Valtiollinen poliisi [State Police].

Etsivä keskuspoliisi, EK [Investigating Central Police] became Valpo in 1937 when it was re-organized. After Communists "captured" Valpo in 1945 it was unofficially called "Red Valpo" or "Valpo II" until it was suspended at the end of 1948. New police unit which started in 1949 was called Suopo = Suojelupoliisi [Security Police] (nowadays Supo, literally [Prototection Police]). It was much smaller than Valpo having initially only about 75 workers while Valpo had over 200.

So at that time "former citizens of USSR" were releaved to USSR in autumn 1944 Valpo was still "white" although already somehow under the control of Communists and "Allied Supervision Commission" (= USSR).

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 24 Nov 2003 08:30

Aleksei,

Who are the writers of your source?

Regards, Juha

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Post by JariL » 24 Nov 2003 08:38

<What you do you mean when you say “mostly failed” ? Hundreds of <Thousands of carabines, pistols, granades, .... tonns of illegal vodka <transferred thrue the OPEN Finnish and ABSOLUTELY (for finn) formal <border into Russia - are REALLY “mostly failed” ? What value of <this “goods” would SELFCONSISTENT to you to say “ .... that was a good <deal” !!! Onee million, Six million, Ten million carabines, pistols, <granades, .... million tonns of illegal vodka .... ????

Hi Aleksei,

If weapons were smugled into Russia in this magnitude that did not happen via Finland. Arms shipments to Kagaali comprised of some thousand weapons and most of them were captured by Russian authorities. It seems that some of the consipirators were too keen in consuming alcohol instead of smugling it and rumours about the shipmenst circulated also into the ears of the authorities.

Most Jews in Finland are decendants of Russian soldiers that served in Finland the 19th century and beginnig of 20th century. When they were released from the army they often founded some sort of small business like a shop. But they did not have citizenship in the country, only a permission to stay in the country. They could not move freely either but needed a permission to move from one location to another. These limitations were removed first when Finland became independent allthough the question had been dicussed several times already in the Finnish diet. The necessary majority to remove the restrictions had not been forth coming though.

Regards,

Jari

Aleksei22
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Just a lift up, only.

Post by Aleksei22 » 28 Nov 2003 04:25

Hello, all

Just a lift up, only.

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