Are Allied "Crimes" really equal to the Holocaust?
- R.M. Schultz
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Are Allied "Crimes" really equal to the Holocaust?
Are Allied "Crimes" really equal to the Holocaust? Please fill in the blanks if you can:
Nazi = Soviet = Western Allies
=================================
Coventry = __________ = Dresden
Völksdeutsch Re-Settlement = German Expulsions = ______________
Commissar Order = Katyan = _______________
Concentration Camps = Gulags = __________________
Death Camps = ________________ = __________________
Einsatzgruppen = ________________ = __________________
Democide of Communists = Democide of Kulaks = __________________
Democide of Jehova's Witnesses = ________________ = __________________
Democide of Homosexuals = ________________ = __________________
Genocide of Jews = ________________ = __________________
Genocide of Rommany = ________________ = __________________
Nazi = Soviet = Western Allies
=================================
Coventry = __________ = Dresden
Völksdeutsch Re-Settlement = German Expulsions = ______________
Commissar Order = Katyan = _______________
Concentration Camps = Gulags = __________________
Death Camps = ________________ = __________________
Einsatzgruppen = ________________ = __________________
Democide of Communists = Democide of Kulaks = __________________
Democide of Jehova's Witnesses = ________________ = __________________
Democide of Homosexuals = ________________ = __________________
Genocide of Jews = ________________ = __________________
Genocide of Rommany = ________________ = __________________
The question should be broken down into two parts.
1. Are the crimes of the Western Allies equal to Germany and it's allies?
2. Are the crimes of the Soviet Union equal to Germany and it's allies?
In regards to the first question, I say no...not even close. Western War crimes were small scale and done as an individual small unit practice. Germany's crimes were far larger and directed on the national level.
The only possilble exception ot this is Dresden. Hamburg was bombed as part of total war against an actively resisting enemy with the war in balance. Totally destroying a civilian city with the enemy collapsing and the war won (Dresden) was questionable at best.
In regards to the second question...The gulags in their totality, Stalin's Purges, Ukrainian Famine, "dekulakization" are equal to the worst atrocities of the NAZIS.
Same absolute idealogy....just a different name.
1. Are the crimes of the Western Allies equal to Germany and it's allies?
2. Are the crimes of the Soviet Union equal to Germany and it's allies?
In regards to the first question, I say no...not even close. Western War crimes were small scale and done as an individual small unit practice. Germany's crimes were far larger and directed on the national level.
The only possilble exception ot this is Dresden. Hamburg was bombed as part of total war against an actively resisting enemy with the war in balance. Totally destroying a civilian city with the enemy collapsing and the war won (Dresden) was questionable at best.
In regards to the second question...The gulags in their totality, Stalin's Purges, Ukrainian Famine, "dekulakization" are equal to the worst atrocities of the NAZIS.
Same absolute idealogy....just a different name.
- R.M. Schultz
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Really? All the Soviet excesses were Democide (the killing of social groups) and never Genocide (killing by race, ethnicity). Since there is no racism in the Soviet ideology, aren't they that much better than the Nazis?Deterance wrote:In regards to the second question...The gulags in their totality, Stalin's Purges, Ukrainian Famine, "dekulakization" are equal to the worst atrocities of the NAZIS. Same absolute idealogy....just a different name.
I dont think so. Immense human suffering is the same to the victim. Whether the perpetrator was motivated by racial or political grounds is secondary.R.M. Schultz wrote:Really? All the Soviet excesses were Democide (the killing of social groups) and never Genocide (killing by race, ethnicity). Since there is no racism in the Soviet ideology, aren't they that much better than the Nazis?Deterance wrote:Same absolute idealogy....just a different name.
The fact remains that both systems inflicted immense human suffering to accomplish their goals. Both characterized a group of people as "sub human" and then attempted to totaly destroy those people.
Both systems had all basic characteristics in common. Even their leaders Hitler/Stalin Beria/Himmler Molotov/Ribbentrop (sp) would have functioned just as easily in the "rival" idealogy as they did in their "home Idealogy"
- R.M. Schultz
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Re: Are Allied "Crimes" really equal to the Holoca
Here are some possible answers
R.M. Schultz wrote:Are Allied "Crimes" really equal to the Holocaust? Please fill in the blanks if you can:
Nazi = Soviet = Western Allies
=================================
Coventry = Soviet inaction during Warsaw rebellion = Dresden
Völksdeutsch Re-Settlement = German Expulsions = No valid comparison in the west
Commissar Order = Katyan = No western comparison
Concentration Camps = Gulags = no western comparison
Death Camps = relocation to certain gulags that were de facto death camps = no western comparison
Einsatzgruppen = NKVD killing squads = no western comparison
Democide of Communists = Democide of Kulaks = no western comparison
Democide of Jehova's Witnesses = Democide of Kulaks, religous and "wreckers" = no western comparison
Democide of Homosexuals = killing of "wreckers" = no western comparison
Genocide of Jews = Ukrainian Famine, Collectivation and Dekulakization = no western comparison
Genocide of Rommany = murders of religous = no western comparison
- R.M. Schultz
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Re: Are Allied "Crimes" really equal to the Holoca
Really? Was extermination the goal of these camps or just a crass waste of human labor?Deterance wrote:Here are some possible answers …
Death Camps = relocation to certain gulags that were de facto death camps = no western comparison
I don't know anything about any "NKVD killing squads." (Really.) Please fill me in.Deterance wrote:Einsatzgruppen = NKVD killing squads = no western comparison]
These are not Genocide but Democide. This is not to say they are not moral outrages, but that they are outrages of a different order than Genocide.Deterance wrote:Genocide of Jews = Ukrainian Famine, Collectivation and Dekulakization = no western comparison
Genocide of Rommany = murders of religous = no western comparison
Another typical example of either the trickery or basic understanding of Schultz. To start the question by comparing
then seperateing the Allies into two catagories for his game, watering down the crimes of the Allies. So instead of
Voelksdeutsch expultions (and note the sneaky use of Re-settlement for the Polish, Czech etc.. actions and "expulsion" for the German) and the western allies turning back Cossack and others of Soviet nationality after the war against their will to certain punishment, and then comparing it to German expultions, we get
:Are Allied "Crimes" really equal to the Holocaust? Please fill in the blanks if you can
then seperateing the Allies into two catagories for his game, watering down the crimes of the Allies. So instead of
Voelksdeutsch expultions (and note the sneaky use of Re-settlement for the Polish, Czech etc.. actions and "expulsion" for the German) and the western allies turning back Cossack and others of Soviet nationality after the war against their will to certain punishment, and then comparing it to German expultions, we get
Völksdeutsch Re-Settlement = German Expulsions = ______________
Last edited by Dan on 22 Nov 2003, 17:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are Allied "Crimes" really equal to the Holoca
R.M. Schultz wrote:
(1.) Really? Was extermination the goal of these camps or just a crass waste of human labor?
(2.) I don't know anything about any "NKVD killing squads." (Really.) Please fill me in.
Deterance wrote:Genocide of Jews = Ukrainian Famine, Collectivation and Dekulakization = no western comparison
(3.)These are not Genocide but Democide. This is not to say they are not moral outrages, but that they are outrages of a different order than Genocide.
In regards to the points ( cant use the quote function well)
1. The Conditions in the worst camps especially on those in the White Sea (converted monastaries) might have led to such a fatality rate that would make them "de facto" death camps.
2. NKVD killing squads includes those who massacared the Poles at Katyn
-They also murdered the religous, Kulaks, Ukrainian intellectuals etc. etc. on site or at a centeral location. Not all these people were deported.
- Number of visctims killed at each site was probalby similar to Eintzegruppen. (Several Dozen to Several Thousand)
- Also enforced the quarantine of Famine areas. From the victims' probable POV and mine, units enforcing deliberate starvation policies are the same as those conducting mass shootings (Just slower)
3. What is the difference? Especially from the victim's point of view.
Dan wrote:Another typical example of either the trickery or basic understanding of Schultz. To start the question by comparing
:Are Allied "Crimes" really equal to the Holocaust? Please fill in the blanks if you can
then seperateing the Allies into two catagories for his game, watering down the crimes of the Allies.
The allies need to be broken down into two groups because they represented to very different systems and behaved accordingly. The Western Powers and the Soviet Union never claimed to be moral, idealogical and political allies. They did claim to be military allies. And then only relatively nominal military allies.
- Benoit Douville
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R.M. Shultz,
I agree with Deterance. I would like to answer your second question about if the crime of the Soviet Union equal the crime commited by the Nazi, the answer is easy, it equal the worst atrocities commited by the Nazi:
-The Katyn tragedy: 4000 Polish officers murdered in 1940 in the area of Smolensk
-2 Million German women raped by the Red Army soldiers in 1945
-1.7 Million Poles deported from Eastern Poland to labour camp in Siberia 1940-42
-About 7 Million Ukrainians died in 1931-32 from famine.
-18 Million were cast into the concentration camps of the Soviet Gulag!
-About 43 000 Officers of the Soviet Union were liquidated before World War II
-The forgotten genocide of the Karachay people who lived in the North Caucasus in 1943, The Crimean Tatars in 1944, the Ingushs, the Kalmuks and the Malkars.
Regards
I agree with Deterance. I would like to answer your second question about if the crime of the Soviet Union equal the crime commited by the Nazi, the answer is easy, it equal the worst atrocities commited by the Nazi:
-The Katyn tragedy: 4000 Polish officers murdered in 1940 in the area of Smolensk
-2 Million German women raped by the Red Army soldiers in 1945
-1.7 Million Poles deported from Eastern Poland to labour camp in Siberia 1940-42
-About 7 Million Ukrainians died in 1931-32 from famine.
-18 Million were cast into the concentration camps of the Soviet Gulag!
-About 43 000 Officers of the Soviet Union were liquidated before World War II
-The forgotten genocide of the Karachay people who lived in the North Caucasus in 1943, The Crimean Tatars in 1944, the Ingushs, the Kalmuks and the Malkars.
Regards
Last edited by Benoit Douville on 24 Nov 2003, 01:15, edited 2 times in total.
- R.M. Schultz
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Re: Are Allied "Crimes" really equal to the Holoca
So you are saying it should look like this:Dan wrote:…Voelksdeutsch expultions (and note the sneaky use of Re-settlement for the Polish, Czech etc.. actions and "expulsion" for the German) and the western allies turning back Cossack and others of Soviet nationality after the war against their will to certain punishment, and then comparing it to German expultions, we get
Völksdeutsch Re-Settlement = German Expulsions = ______________
Völksdeutsch Re-Settlement = German Expulsions = Repatriation of Soviet POW's
Is that really equivalent? After all, the repatriation of Soviet POW's was a quid pro quo for the return of Western prisoners, and it was done within the context of existing international law, and the fate of the returned POW's was a Soviet action, not a Western action. I can see the analogy, but I'm not sure I agree with it. What do the rest of you think?
I really don't know, and so I'm asking not asserting, but doesn't this sound more analogous to the Gestapo/SD than to the Einsatzgruppen?Deterance wrote:2. NKVD killing squads includes those who massacared the Poles at Katyn
-They also murdered the religious, Kulaks, Ukrainian intellectuals etc. etc. on site or at a centeral location. Not all these people were deported. …
Again, I am under the impression that the Einsatzgruppen were responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands, not merely several thousand.Deterance wrote:… - Number of victims killed at each site was probably similar to Einsatzgruppen. (Several Dozen to Several Thousand)…
Well, since Democide is killing on the basis of social group not race, and one can always change one's social group (e.g. renounce the Faith and become an atheist, change from Kulak to factory hand, etc.), while one can not change one's race, Democide is less morally onerous than Genocide.Deterance wrote:3. What is the difference? Especially from the victim's point of view.R.M. Schultz wrote: (3.)These are not Genocide but Democide. This is not to say they are not moral outrages, but that they are outrages of a different order than Genocide.
Having said that, I am not wondering if the Ukrainian Famine were not actual Genocide? I really don't know.
RE-There were two side's of Same Coin.
Benoit Douville,Benoit Douville wrote:R.M. Shultz,
I agree with Deterance. I would like to answer your second question about if the crime of the Soviet Union equal the crime commited by the Nazi, the answer is easy, it equal the worst atrocities commited by the Nazi:
-The Katyn tragedy: 4000 Polish officers murdered in 1940 in the area of Smolensk
-2 Million German women raped by the Red Army soldiers in 1945
-1.7 Million Poles deported from Eastern Poland to labour camp in Siberia 1940-42
-About 7 Million Ukrainians died in 1931-32 from famine.
-18 Million were cast into the concentration camps of the Soviet Gulag!
-About 43 000 Officers of the Soviet Union were liquidated before World War II
-The forgotten genocide of the Karachay people who lived in the North Caucasus in 1943, The Crimean Tatars in 1944, the Ingushs, the Kalmuks and the Malkars.
Regards
I agree with you completely.
Infact according to dissident indian communist intellectual
Stalinism & Hitlerism are two sides of same coin the greatest common factor being mass-murders commited by each regime
Re:
What about the massive deportations of Volga Germans to gulags during World War II? You could make a comparison with the American internment camps for Americans of Japanese descent, however, there was never a systematic extermination for them and they never starved, while the Volga Germans who didn't flee the USSR were worked and starved to death. It's a different method of genocide than gassing or shooting, but it is just as bad.