Are Allied "Crimes" really equal to the Holocaust?

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R.M. Schultz
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Are Allied "Crimes" really equal to the Holocaust?

Post by R.M. Schultz » 22 Nov 2003 03:02

Are Allied "Crimes" really equal to the Holocaust? Please fill in the blanks if you can:

Nazi = Soviet = Western Allies
=================================

Coventry = __________ = Dresden

Völksdeutsch Re-Settlement = German Expulsions = ______________

Commissar Order = Katyan = _______________

Concentration Camps = Gulags = __________________

Death Camps = ________________ = __________________

Einsatzgruppen = ________________ = __________________

Democide of Communists = Democide of Kulaks = __________________

Democide of Jehova's Witnesses = ________________ = __________________

Democide of Homosexuals = ________________ = __________________

Genocide of Jews = ________________ = __________________

Genocide of Rommany = ________________ = __________________

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Deterance
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Post by Deterance » 22 Nov 2003 05:24

The question should be broken down into two parts.

1. Are the crimes of the Western Allies equal to Germany and it's allies?
2. Are the crimes of the Soviet Union equal to Germany and it's allies?

In regards to the first question, I say no...not even close. Western War crimes were small scale and done as an individual small unit practice. Germany's crimes were far larger and directed on the national level.

The only possilble exception ot this is Dresden. Hamburg was bombed as part of total war against an actively resisting enemy with the war in balance. Totally destroying a civilian city with the enemy collapsing and the war won (Dresden) was questionable at best.

In regards to the second question...The gulags in their totality, Stalin's Purges, Ukrainian Famine, "dekulakization" are equal to the worst atrocities of the NAZIS.

Same absolute idealogy....just a different name.

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R.M. Schultz
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Post by R.M. Schultz » 22 Nov 2003 06:34

Deterance wrote:In regards to the second question...The gulags in their totality, Stalin's Purges, Ukrainian Famine, "dekulakization" are equal to the worst atrocities of the NAZIS. Same absolute idealogy....just a different name.
Really? All the Soviet excesses were Democide (the killing of social groups) and never Genocide (killing by race, ethnicity). Since there is no racism in the Soviet ideology, aren't they that much better than the Nazis?

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Deterance
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Post by Deterance » 22 Nov 2003 08:42

R.M. Schultz wrote:
Deterance wrote:Same absolute idealogy....just a different name.
Really? All the Soviet excesses were Democide (the killing of social groups) and never Genocide (killing by race, ethnicity). Since there is no racism in the Soviet ideology, aren't they that much better than the Nazis?
I dont think so. Immense human suffering is the same to the victim. Whether the perpetrator was motivated by racial or political grounds is secondary.

The fact remains that both systems inflicted immense human suffering to accomplish their goals. Both characterized a group of people as "sub human" and then attempted to totaly destroy those people.

Both systems had all basic characteristics in common. Even their leaders Hitler/Stalin Beria/Himmler Molotov/Ribbentrop (sp) would have functioned just as easily in the "rival" idealogy as they did in their "home Idealogy"

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R.M. Schultz
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Post by R.M. Schultz » 22 Nov 2003 09:02

Deterance wrote:Both systems had all basic characteristics in common. Even their leaders Hitler/Stalin Beria/Himmler Molotov/Ribbentrop (sp) would have functioned just as easily in the "rival" idealogy as they did in their "home Idealogy"
Okay — then fill in my blanks.

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Re: Are Allied "Crimes" really equal to the Holoca

Post by Deterance » 22 Nov 2003 09:33

Here are some possible answers
R.M. Schultz wrote:Are Allied "Crimes" really equal to the Holocaust? Please fill in the blanks if you can:

Nazi = Soviet = Western Allies
=================================

Coventry = Soviet inaction during Warsaw rebellion = Dresden

Völksdeutsch Re-Settlement = German Expulsions = No valid comparison in the west

Commissar Order = Katyan = No western comparison

Concentration Camps = Gulags = no western comparison

Death Camps = relocation to certain gulags that were de facto death camps = no western comparison

Einsatzgruppen = NKVD killing squads = no western comparison

Democide of Communists = Democide of Kulaks = no western comparison

Democide of Jehova's Witnesses = Democide of Kulaks, religous and "wreckers" = no western comparison

Democide of Homosexuals = killing of "wreckers" = no western comparison

Genocide of Jews = Ukrainian Famine, Collectivation and Dekulakization = no western comparison

Genocide of Rommany = murders of religous = no western comparison

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R.M. Schultz
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Re: Are Allied "Crimes" really equal to the Holoca

Post by R.M. Schultz » 22 Nov 2003 09:43

Deterance wrote:Here are some possible answers …

Death Camps = relocation to certain gulags that were de facto death camps = no western comparison
Really? Was extermination the goal of these camps or just a crass waste of human labor?
Deterance wrote:Einsatzgruppen = NKVD killing squads = no western comparison]
I don't know anything about any "NKVD killing squads." (Really.) Please fill me in.
Deterance wrote:Genocide of Jews = Ukrainian Famine, Collectivation and Dekulakization = no western comparison

Genocide of Rommany = murders of religous = no western comparison
These are not Genocide but Democide. This is not to say they are not moral outrages, but that they are outrages of a different order than Genocide.

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Post by Dan » 22 Nov 2003 14:20

Another typical example of either the trickery or basic understanding of Schultz. To start the question by comparing
Are Allied "Crimes" really equal to the Holocaust? Please fill in the blanks if you can
:

then seperateing the Allies into two catagories for his game, watering down the crimes of the Allies. So instead of

Voelksdeutsch expultions (and note the sneaky use of Re-settlement for the Polish, Czech etc.. actions and "expulsion" for the German) and the western allies turning back Cossack and others of Soviet nationality after the war against their will to certain punishment, and then comparing it to German expultions, we get


Völksdeutsch Re-Settlement = German Expulsions = ______________
Last edited by Dan on 22 Nov 2003 16:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by David Thompson » 22 Nov 2003 16:36

Please avoid personal comments about other posters.

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Re: Are Allied "Crimes" really equal to the Holoca

Post by Deterance » 22 Nov 2003 18:48

R.M. Schultz wrote:

(1.) Really? Was extermination the goal of these camps or just a crass waste of human labor?

(2.) I don't know anything about any "NKVD killing squads." (Really.) Please fill me in.
Deterance wrote:Genocide of Jews = Ukrainian Famine, Collectivation and Dekulakization = no western comparison

(3.)These are not Genocide but Democide. This is not to say they are not moral outrages, but that they are outrages of a different order than Genocide.

In regards to the points ( cant use the quote function well)

1. The Conditions in the worst camps especially on those in the White Sea (converted monastaries) might have led to such a fatality rate that would make them "de facto" death camps.

2. NKVD killing squads includes those who massacared the Poles at Katyn
-They also murdered the religous, Kulaks, Ukrainian intellectuals etc. etc. on site or at a centeral location. Not all these people were deported.
- Number of visctims killed at each site was probalby similar to Eintzegruppen. (Several Dozen to Several Thousand)
- Also enforced the quarantine of Famine areas. From the victims' probable POV and mine, units enforcing deliberate starvation policies are the same as those conducting mass shootings (Just slower)

3. What is the difference? Especially from the victim's point of view.

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Post by Deterance » 22 Nov 2003 18:57

Dan wrote:Another typical example of either the trickery or basic understanding of Schultz. To start the question by comparing
Are Allied "Crimes" really equal to the Holocaust? Please fill in the blanks if you can
:

then seperateing the Allies into two catagories for his game, watering down the crimes of the Allies.

The allies need to be broken down into two groups because they represented to very different systems and behaved accordingly. The Western Powers and the Soviet Union never claimed to be moral, idealogical and political allies. They did claim to be military allies. And then only relatively nominal military allies.

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Post by Benoit Douville » 22 Nov 2003 20:44

R.M. Shultz,

I agree with Deterance. I would like to answer your second question about if the crime of the Soviet Union equal the crime commited by the Nazi, the answer is easy, it equal the worst atrocities commited by the Nazi:

-The Katyn tragedy: 4000 Polish officers murdered in 1940 in the area of Smolensk
-2 Million German women raped by the Red Army soldiers in 1945
-1.7 Million Poles deported from Eastern Poland to labour camp in Siberia 1940-42
-About 7 Million Ukrainians died in 1931-32 from famine.
-18 Million were cast into the concentration camps of the Soviet Gulag!
-About 43 000 Officers of the Soviet Union were liquidated before World War II
-The forgotten genocide of the Karachay people who lived in the North Caucasus in 1943, The Crimean Tatars in 1944, the Ingushs, the Kalmuks and the Malkars.

Regards
Last edited by Benoit Douville on 24 Nov 2003 00:15, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Are Allied "Crimes" really equal to the Holoca

Post by R.M. Schultz » 23 Nov 2003 00:53

Dan wrote:…Voelksdeutsch expultions (and note the sneaky use of Re-settlement for the Polish, Czech etc.. actions and "expulsion" for the German) and the western allies turning back Cossack and others of Soviet nationality after the war against their will to certain punishment, and then comparing it to German expultions, we get
Völksdeutsch Re-Settlement = German Expulsions = ______________
So you are saying it should look like this:

Völksdeutsch Re-Settlement = German Expulsions = Repatriation of Soviet POW's

Is that really equivalent? After all, the repatriation of Soviet POW's was a quid pro quo for the return of Western prisoners, and it was done within the context of existing international law, and the fate of the returned POW's was a Soviet action, not a Western action. I can see the analogy, but I'm not sure I agree with it. What do the rest of you think?
Deterance wrote:2. NKVD killing squads includes those who massacared the Poles at Katyn
-They also murdered the religious, Kulaks, Ukrainian intellectuals etc. etc. on site or at a centeral location. Not all these people were deported. …
I really don't know, and so I'm asking not asserting, but doesn't this sound more analogous to the Gestapo/SD than to the Einsatzgruppen?
Deterance wrote:… - Number of victims killed at each site was probably similar to Einsatzgruppen. (Several Dozen to Several Thousand)…
Again, I am under the impression that the Einsatzgruppen were responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands, not merely several thousand.
Deterance wrote:
R.M. Schultz wrote: (3.)These are not Genocide but Democide. This is not to say they are not moral outrages, but that they are outrages of a different order than Genocide.
3. What is the difference? Especially from the victim's point of view.
Well, since Democide is killing on the basis of social group not race, and one can always change one's social group (e.g. renounce the Faith and become an atheist, change from Kulak to factory hand, etc.), while one can not change one's race, Democide is less morally onerous than Genocide.

Having said that, I am not wondering if the Ukrainian Famine were not actual Genocide? I really don't know.

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RE-There were two side's of Same Coin.

Post by wildboar » 24 Nov 2003 18:10

Benoit Douville wrote:R.M. Shultz,

I agree with Deterance. I would like to answer your second question about if the crime of the Soviet Union equal the crime commited by the Nazi, the answer is easy, it equal the worst atrocities commited by the Nazi:

-The Katyn tragedy: 4000 Polish officers murdered in 1940 in the area of Smolensk
-2 Million German women raped by the Red Army soldiers in 1945
-1.7 Million Poles deported from Eastern Poland to labour camp in Siberia 1940-42
-About 7 Million Ukrainians died in 1931-32 from famine.
-18 Million were cast into the concentration camps of the Soviet Gulag!
-About 43 000 Officers of the Soviet Union were liquidated before World War II
-The forgotten genocide of the Karachay people who lived in the North Caucasus in 1943, The Crimean Tatars in 1944, the Ingushs, the Kalmuks and the Malkars.

Regards
Benoit Douville,
I agree with you completely.
Infact according to dissident indian communist intellectual
Stalinism & Hitlerism are two sides of same coin the greatest common factor being mass-murders commited by each regime

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Re:

Post by Manstein » 24 Nov 2003 23:33

What about the massive deportations of Volga Germans to gulags during World War II? You could make a comparison with the American internment camps for Americans of Japanese descent, however, there was never a systematic extermination for them and they never starved, while the Volga Germans who didn't flee the USSR were worked and starved to death. It's a different method of genocide than gassing or shooting, but it is just as bad.

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