Is Holocaust denial equal to "moral bankruptsy"

Deitschuke · Post by **Deitschuke** » 25 Nov 2003 17:19

To what extent does denying the holocaust imply a moral vacancy of a person? How much of it is a psychological grey area, or a reaction to another extreme- holocaust promotion?

R.M. Schultz · Post by **R.M. Schultz** » 28 Nov 2003 02:49

If it is done from sheer ignorance, then that is all it is, ignorance. But if one has actually read anything about the Holocaust, and still tries to deny it or diminish its moral importance, then I think that becomes real bankruptcy.

Karl · Post by **Karl** » 28 Nov 2003 04:44

And what do you think causes moral bankruptcy?

Rob - wssob2 · Post by **Rob - wssob2** » 28 Nov 2003 11:53

How about
racism, bigotry and/or antisemitism?

Karl · Post by **Karl** » 28 Nov 2003 12:52

Okay.

Are you saying that every racist, bigot or anti-Semitic denies the holocaust?

R.M. Schultz · Post by **R.M. Schultz** » 28 Nov 2003 15:39

Karl wrote:Okay. Are you saying that every racist, bigot or anti-Semitic denies the holocaust?

No, but every Holocaust Denier has some kind of agenda like racism.

ChristopherPerrien · Post by **ChristopherPerrien** » 28 Nov 2003 17:41

Karl wrote:And what do you think causes moral bankruptcy?

Pride , envy, and, greed.

Also I suppose most people if they are brought up in a morally-bankrupt environment or live in one long enough they will become that way too.

No, but every Holocaust Denier has some kind of agenda like racism.

I will buy this Schultz, but I add that almost everyone engaged in these debates has an agenda.

Holocaust denial is a reflex action by true anti-semites to what they consider to be Jewish/Hebrew/Zionist propaganda. They consider the "Holocaust " a fabrication, used by the Jews to their race's advantage and they hate to see Jews win sympathy or support because of the "Holocaust".

The issue of "Holocaust promotion" is the real fly in the ointment, How do you determine if someone is a "Holocaust Denier", or just somebody interested in the accuracy of the historical record?

R.M. Schultz · Post by **R.M. Schultz** » 28 Nov 2003 21:28

ChristopherPerrien wrote:The issue of "Holocaust promotion" is the real fly in the ointment, How do you determine if someone is a "Holocaust Denier", or just somebody interested in the accuracy of the historical record?

As it stands now, our definition:

A Holocaust Denier is anyone who asserts at least three of the following propositions:

— That fewer than the generally accepted numbers of a minimum of 4.5 million Jews perished during WW2.
— That an small number, fewer than one million, Jews perished during WW2.
— That an insignificant number, fewer than one hundred thousand, Jews perished during WW2.
— That gas chambers were never used to execute prisoners
— That gas vans were never used to execute prisoners
— That there was no intention of democide or genocide
— That the massive die-off of Jews was due to "wartime conditions"
— That Germany was "forced into war."
— That "the Jews" had "declared war" on Germany.
— That Western Allied "war crimes" are in any way on par with the Holocaust.
— That Soviet crimes in some way "balanced" the Holocaust.

Or who asserts the following proposition:

— Asserting that the Jews "deserved" the Holocaust since they had "killed Christ," or had "turned from God," or had themselves had committed genocide (with God's sanction) in ancient days.

The idea here is that, by requiring agreement with three fallacies, we can determine who is a "Holocaust Denier" and who is just confused about the accuracy of the historical record.

Karl · Post by **Karl** » 28 Nov 2003 23:29

R.M. Schultz wrote:No, but every Holocaust Denier has some kind of agenda like racism.

Alright, but why? And do their agendas all share the same trait? For example, is every denier an anti-semite?

ChristopherPerrien wrote:Also I suppose most people if they are brought up in a morally-bankrupt environment or live in one long enough they will become that way too.

What do you mean by a 'morally bankrupt environment'?

Penn44 · Post by **Penn44** » 29 Nov 2003 01:10

Perhaps we should first establish some form of consensus on what we mean by "moral." What constitutes being "moral" and "immoral."

My sense of moral maybe entirely different than yours and although we are all throwing around the word, "moral" in this discussion, we may be talking about very different senses of the word.

.

Poison Dwarf · Post by **Poison Dwarf** » 29 Nov 2003 06:03

R.M. Schultz wrote:
Karl wrote:Okay. Are you saying that every racist, bigot or anti-Semitic denies the holocaust?
No, but every Holocaust Denier has some kind of agenda like racism.

Really? Since you have decided who is a Denier, now you are making accusations like who is a racist.

Well, them's fightin' words, boy.

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 29 Nov 2003 06:39

Poison Dwarf -- Please avoid personal comments about other posters, or go back to "Disneyland."

Poison Dwarf · Post by **Poison Dwarf** » 29 Nov 2003 06:44

David Thompson wrote:Poison Dwarf -- Pleased avoid personal comments about other posters, or go back to Disneyland.

That's why I left Disneyland and posted. Why do you permit personal attacks against former posters?

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 29 Nov 2003 06:52

Poison Dwarf -- What are you talking about? There are no personal attacks on named posters or former posters in this thread. In any event, please avoid personal comments or be gone.

Poison Dwarf · Post by **Poison Dwarf** » 29 Nov 2003 07:42

David Thompson wrote:Poison Dwarf -- What are you talking about? There are no personal attacks on named posters or former posters in this thread. In any event, please avoid personal comments or be gone.

Merely a long train of abuses. How about this one?

Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2003 6:59 am

R.M. Schultz wrote:I now offer a new definition of "Holocaust Denier:"

If it walks like Scott Smith, talks like Scott Smith, and twists the issues like Scott Smith, it is a Holocaust Denier!

Another try at defining "Holocaust Denier."

Now, on this thread, it is a matter of "moral bankruptcy" and "racism."

Like I said, fighting words.