MP-43/44

Discussions on the small arms used by the Axis forces.
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hauptmannn
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Post by hauptmannn » 03 Mar 2004 11:11

Then why was it called the first assault rifle? :?

Tony Williams
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Post by Tony Williams » 03 Mar 2004 13:46

Because itt was the first weapon to be called an assault rifle (or Sturmgewehr to be precise).

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Porsche
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Post by Porsche » 23 Mar 2004 16:57

Christian,
MP43/MP44/Stg.44 production numbers prior to November 1944.
From "German Small Arms" (AJR Cormack) and "Guns of the Reich" (G. Markham), total MKb.42 (MP43 prototype) was about 5,000 and the total MP43's delivered in 1943 was about 14,000 (although the serial numbers suggest over 30,000 were made). For the MP44, 29,500 had been produced in the 5 months between April and August 1944 (when records become unreliable). The numbers that you've quoted suggest that another 230,000 were made between November '44 and May '45 (6 months) -I find this an incredible achievment considering the problems during that period. To put this into perspective, the peak annual volume for the MG42, a well proven design for mass production manufactured and assembled at a number of factories, was 215,327 in 1944 (12 months). 8O

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 23 Mar 2004 17:23

Porsche wrote:Christian,
MP43/MP44/Stg.44 production numbers prior to November 1944.
From "German Small Arms" (AJR Cormack) and "Guns of the Reich" (G. Markham), total MKb.42 (MP43 prototype) was about 5,000 and the total MP43's delivered in 1943 was about 14,000 (although the serial numbers suggest over 30,000 were made). For the MP44, 29,500 had been produced in the 5 months between April and August 1944 (when records become unreliable). The numbers that you've quoted suggest that another 230,000 were made between November '44 and May '45 (6 months) -I find this an incredible achievment considering the problems during that period. To put this into perspective, the peak annual volume for the MG42, a well proven design for mass production manufactured and assembled at a number of factories, was 215,327 in 1944 (12 months). 8O
The numbers are from the original production reports from the Ministerium für Rüstung und Kriegsproduktion, so I don't doubt their authenticity. The German industry increased its production from 1943 to 1944, and again from 1944 to 1945. In fact, the production in 1945, until near the end of the war, was the largest throughout the war!

Christian

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Xavier
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Post by Xavier » 23 Mar 2004 17:57

I have 2 MP44's (marked so: MP44)

serial numbers: 392y/44 and 1597y/44, both bought from http://www.ima-usa.com about 3 years ago

can the fellow forum members please post their serial #'s?
let's see who has the highest serial number!!!


best regards

Xavier
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Last edited by Xavier on 23 Mar 2004 20:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Porsche
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Post by Porsche » 23 Mar 2004 20:52

Christian,
sorry, I don't doubt your sources, but I think that it's incredible to think that they managed to increase production by that scale in such a short time -maybe the figures quoted in my references are suspect ? If you combine your figures and mine, it suggests that there was a total production of the MP43 series of just under 300,000 not the 500,000+ that's often quoted. It would be nice to verify Cormack and Markhams figures.
If Xaviers research is succesful, then maybe we can work out the production numbers from the serial numbers -now there's a task ! :idea:

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Xavier
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Post by Xavier » 23 Mar 2004 20:59

@Porsche...

Some people/industries work better under pressure, and the "outsourcing" system was implemented only in the last stage of the war, hence the increased production.

Outsurcing: to bring partially assembled components to a production line for final assembly of products.

The MP44 was assembled in this way, this is why you see parts finised in clear parkerizing, dark bluing, clear bluing and more in a matching #'s gun. lot of small suppliers of small parts to assemble the complete gun.

I am in to collect the serial numbers, please send them by pm to my forum box.

best regards

Xavier
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Porsche
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Post by Porsche » 23 Mar 2004 21:13

Xavier,
I realise that the Germans introduced outsourcing to ease production, but the Americans and British also introduced (more or less) 24 hour bombing to reduce it. Add to this the shortage of materials and the reduction in facilities as the borders closed in. I think that it was a fantastic achievment even to maintain the production numbers. I guess it shows what you can do when your back's against the wall! :)

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Xavier
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Post by Xavier » 23 Mar 2004 21:25

@Porsche:

I forgot to add:

another thing to consider, is the particulars of the gun: it takes a lot less time to stamp, bend and weld a piece of shet metal, than to machine a block of solid ordnance grade steel.

The workforce used to manufacture the MP44 series did not need to be as qualified as the workers needed to work the lathes at the traditional weapon factories.

assembly was being done mostly by unqualified labor, mostly women, as tolerances were also on the loose side.

I am not in or agaisnt the data provided in the forum, I just want to learn more about the weapon that IMHO changed the postwar infantry tactics.

Let's see what comes out of the serial numbers in the long run, I have opened a new thread to collect the data.: :wink:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 936#412936

very best regards

Xavier
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Christian Ankerstjerne
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Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 23 Mar 2004 22:55

Bringing in subcomponents from various factories for final assembly was not something new - it was used to a great extent in Tiger production, for example.

Christian

Tony Williams
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Post by Tony Williams » 24 Mar 2004 02:29

German war production was amazingly inefficient until Speer was given the job of reorganising it late in the war. He did this at the same time as distributing it to reduce the vulnerability, siting assembly lines in tunnels etc. As a result, German war production overall went UP towards the end, until close to the final collapse.

Tony Williams

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Domagoj
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Post by Domagoj » 25 Mar 2004 21:01

To Uninens question if Yugoslavian paratroopers used MP44 untill '83;
Yugoslav army was one of the strongest armies in Europe in that time (Croats and Bosnians had experienced it's strenght in 1990's) and it used modern weapon, mostly yugoslav version of the AK-47.
German equipment was used untill mid 50's, but much of the old german equipment was placed in military warehouses as the "war reserves".
It is now possible to find some of this things around (those warehouses were robbed during the civil war in 90's) and this is one of my sources of finding german WW2 militaria.
Regards, Domagoj

TM2000
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Stg44 in ex-Yu army

Post by TM2000 » 26 Mar 2004 10:12

The Stg in ex-Yu army. 1950/1960?
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Domagoj
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Post by Domagoj » 26 Mar 2004 21:16

Who knows, it might be somewhere in sixties.
I know that the equipment of German paratroopers who landed in Drvar (Bosnia and Herzegovina) to catch Tito, was kept in military warehouse in Mostar but everything was burned some years ago.That equipment was used in film "Fight on river Sutjeska".
Were those paratroopers equiped with MP44?
I'm asking this because it was easier to find this weapon in that part of Bosnia than in other parts of former Yugoslavia.

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Domagoj
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Post by Domagoj » 29 Mar 2004 22:16

I found out that MP44 was realy used in Yugoslav army untill the '80s, and then this weapons were given to Angola.Before that it was issued to paratroopers in Nis (Serbia) and it was also kept by Slovenian Teritorial defense.
Regards, Domagoj

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