Lynching of Luftwaffe airmen by British mobs

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Panzermahn
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Lynching of Luftwaffe airmen by British mobs

Post by Panzermahn » 15 Dec 2003 08:34

Most of you all heard that German mobs always lynch downed allied airmen because of anger of destruction by the bombing of Germany..


How about Luftwaffe airmen who baled out in England and were lynched by British mobs?


I had an issue of WW2 magazine (2nd issue) Battle of Britain published by the Imperial War Museum...(came with maps and a war diary...)

An entry in the War Diary mentioned that a luftwaffe pilot who bale out in england (i think it was coventry...sorry if i'm wrong..i try to look up again for you) was beaten to death by a british mob

Had anyone knew about this?

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hauptmannn
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Post by hauptmannn » 15 Dec 2003 17:05

It is likely this could have happened

Xanthro
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Re: Lynching of Luftwaffe airmen by British mobs

Post by Xanthro » 15 Dec 2003 17:24

panzermahn wrote:Most of you all heard that German mobs always lynch downed allied airmen because of anger of destruction by the bombing of Germany..


If allied airmen were ALWAYS lynched, then they wouldn't be any in POW camps no would there.

I'm sure that some were killed on both sides. People tend to get angry when their cities are bombed.

Xanthro

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Post by ChristopherPerrien » 15 Dec 2003 18:02

Technically if civilians beat up or murder downed airman or enemy soldiers , no war-crime has taken place.

Civilians are not soldiers they don't not have to respect the laws of wars only whatever civil laws they are ruled by. Also in reality soldiers cannot legally surrender to civilians. And I see nothing in the conventions that require civilians to accept surrenders.

This is one reasons why it is made clear to soldiers especially airmen lost in enemy territory to seek out a responsible authority or agent of an enemy government to surrender to because civilians really have no restrictions on them except for their regular laws, and given " extenuating circumstances" involved may not led to any punishment against them. Although their government may be required to "press relevant charges", I see nothing about mandatory punishments.

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Penn44
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Post by Penn44 » 15 Dec 2003 19:39

ChristopherPerrien wrote:Technically if civilians beat up or murder downed airman or enemy soldiers , no war-crime has taken place.


The US Army tried a good number of German civilians for beating and/or murdering downed American airmen, and these cases were regarded as war crimes cases. The US Army hanged several of the Germans, example, the Wolfsangel case.

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Germania
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Post by Germania » 15 Dec 2003 19:42

It shows the understandig of right and moral

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Penn44
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Re: Lynching of Luftwaffe airmen by British mobs

Post by Penn44 » 15 Dec 2003 19:46

Xanthro wrote:
panzermahn wrote:Most of you all heard that German mobs always lynch downed allied airmen because of anger of destruction by the bombing of Germany..


I'm sure that some were killed on both sides. People tend to get angry when their cities are bombed.



The German and Hungarian governments carried on an extensive domestic propaganda campaign regarding Terrorfliegers and encouraged the populace to vent their anger against these down airmen. The Allied goverments did not do the same.

In Hungarian propaganda, for example, the American airmen were protrayed as "Chicago gangsters" whom the Americans had released from jail to conduct these missions, and that the gangsters were paid $50,000 per flight One American POW who was shot down over Hungary and who was injured and could not flee told me that the first Hungarian who came upon him was a Hungarian girl who went through the pockets of his flight jacket looking for the $50,000. Now, propaganda such as this dramatically increases the anger of population against airmen bombing their cities, and in a sense, legitimizes the harming of the airmen as they are in the mind of the population only "gangsters" anyway.

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Post by Peter » 15 Dec 2003 20:25

Hi

this is a part of a thread I started back in January

On 20 May 1940 a Messerschmitt Bf110 of 9 Staffel Zerstorergeschwader 26 was shot down by French fighters near Luchy, France. Its pilot, Uffz Wilhelm Ross (born 27 Jan 1917 at Duisburg) and gunner both baled out, the gunner landed injured and both were captured by French soldiers and civilians. The Pilot was pushed around a little and then shot in the head and killed.

On 26 Aug 1940 a Heinkel He111 of 4 Staffel, Kampfgeschwader 55 based at Chartres in France was shot down by RAF fighters and was crash landed by its wounded pilot Leutnant Albert Metzger on the beach at East Wittering in Sussex. Metzger couldnt get out of the bomber due to wounds but his crew Uffz. Rudolf Schandner (Observer), Fw. Julius Urhahn (Flight Mechanic), Uffz. Rudi Paas (Radio Operator) and Flgr. Rudolf Fessel (Gunner) climbed out to surrender to A Company, 2nd Battalion, Duke of Cornwalls Light Infantry. They were all shot dead on the beach.

On 15 Sep 40 a Dornier Do17Z of 1 Staffel, Kampfgeschwader 76 was shot down over London, it crashed on Victoria Station after some of the crew baled out. Oberleutnant Robert Zehbe (born 9 Dec 1913 Kiel) landed by parachute in Kennington, London. He was captured and beaten to death by a mob of civilians.



Pete

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Post by ChristopherPerrien » 15 Dec 2003 20:36

Penn44 wrote:
ChristopherPerrien wrote:Technically if civilians beat up or murder downed airman or enemy soldiers , no war-crime has taken place.


The US Army tried a good number of German civilians for beating and/or murdering downed American airmen, and these cases were regarded as war crimes cases. The US Army hanged several of the Germans, example, the Wolfsangel case.

.


You are talking martial law imposed by an occupied army , that in itself does not invalidate what the conventions say or don't say on this issue. Martial law at that time would be the law of the land so I suppose this was the reason for it. These civilians were punished by the presiding government or agent of. But that is also "retroactive law" and punishment, which would just be another tennant for saying this example does not invalidate my premise and it does does change the conventions though "retroactive precedence". I would be interested in seing what you have on this "Wolfshangel" case. That mght be an interesting topic.

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 15 Dec 2003 20:57

ChristopherPerrien wrote:Technically if civilians beat up or murder downed airman or enemy soldiers , no war-crime has taken place.
So...the civilians are protected by the inernational agreements and it´s a war crime to kill them, but the civilians are allowed to kill enemy (unarmed? willing to surrender) soldiers without breaking any international laws 8O

Regards, Juha

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Post by Kaan Caglar » 15 Dec 2003 21:23

Juha Tompuri wrote:
ChristopherPerrien wrote:Technically if civilians beat up or murder downed airman or enemy soldiers , no war-crime has taken place.
So...the civilians are protected by the inernational agreements and it´s a war crime to kill them, but the civilians are allowed to kill enemy (unarmed? willing to surrender) soldiers without breaking any international laws 8O

Regards, Juha

I was going to point out the same thing a while ago, but I thought that wouldnt be actually a war crime,but a crime which would be punished by their own state...
Kaan

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Post by ChristopherPerrien » 15 Dec 2003 21:30

Juha Tompuri wrote:
ChristopherPerrien wrote:Technically if civilians beat up or murder downed airman or enemy soldiers , no war-crime has taken place.
So...the civilians are protected by the inernational agreements and it´s a war crime to kill them, but the civilians are allowed to kill enemy (unarmed? willing to surrender) soldiers without breaking any international laws 8O

Regards, Juha


Yes, Juha

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Post by ChristopherPerrien » 15 Dec 2003 21:32

_KaaN_ wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote:
ChristopherPerrien wrote:Technically if civilians beat up or murder downed airman or enemy soldiers , no war-crime has taken place.
So...the civilians are protected by the inernational agreements and it´s a war crime to kill them, but the civilians are allowed to kill enemy (unarmed? willing to surrender) soldiers without breaking any international laws 8O

Regards, Juha

I was going to point out the same thing a while ago, but I thought that wouldnt be actually a war crime,but a crime which would be punished by their own state...
Kaan
Thank you Kaan you stated better than I did . The way the conventions read , that is correct. Not a war-crime in an international sense but a civil crime punishable by the "law of the land"

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 15 Dec 2003 22:15

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawof ... 4.htm#art1
quote: Article 2 of the Hague IV Convention
"The inhabitants of a territory which has not been occupied, who, on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading troops without having had time to organize themselves in accordance with the article 1, shall be regarded as belligerents if they carry arms openly and if they respect the laws and customs of war."
To have "international protection" the civilians taking part to the fighting, should obey all the rules.
The mobs:
-have had time to organize
-arms?
-did not respect the laws and rules of war

Regards, Juha

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Post by michael mills » 15 Dec 2003 22:15

Referring back to the three cases listed by Iltis, I would like to know whther the British Government prosecuted any of the soldiers and civilians who killed the downed German airmen who had surrendered.

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