Rammkommando Elbe

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Luftwaffe air units and general discussions on the Luftwaffe.
Tolga Alkan
Financial supporter
Posts: 1887
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 16:00
Location: Turkey

Rammkommando Elbe

Post by Tolga Alkan » 14 Jan 2004 16:29

Hallo,
Today i read awesome personal accounts of two Officer who both were only a few personnel survived alive from ramming.I would like to read more about the unit and its another survivors.

Best Regards
Tolga

User avatar
ChrisMAg2
Member
Posts: 623
Joined: 04 Aug 2003 08:26
Location: Hannover, Germany or Manila, Philippines

Post by ChrisMAg2 » 14 Jan 2004 18:00


User avatar
Erich
Member
Posts: 2728
Joined: 12 Mar 2002 23:28
Location: OR

Post by Erich » 14 Jan 2004 20:34

Chris, the Rammkommando Elbe threads were so convoluted no-one including myself knew which end was up !

Tolga please be more specific. Ramming was pretty uncommon but was used at times by Sturmstaffel pilots in Sturmstaffel 1, the three Sturmgruppen and the disastrous Rammkommado Elbe which goes by several other names. What dates are you talking about ?

~E

User avatar
ChrisMAg2
Member
Posts: 623
Joined: 04 Aug 2003 08:26
Location: Hannover, Germany or Manila, Philippines

Post by ChrisMAg2 » 14 Jan 2004 21:55

@Erich,
the threads are like the topic. I could offer more links, but then you probabely would be even more confused.
This topic bounces every once and then up on all important sites, I know.
But here's a short! resume:
All threads regarding suicide attacks, ramming, SdKdo Elbe, Sonderlehrgang Elbe and even KG 200 are correlated, if not all the same.
It is true there was the plan to ramm a bomber with a fighter. But it was not a suicide attack, like the japanese "Kamikaze". The training took place on several remote AFs. So Far ther is only one! verfied attack (Apr. '45).--

What makes this thread so mysterious is there are more rumors spreading around then facts. According to what I have read, most of the lierature is wrong. The whole story seems to have hardly any facts. And the few known are very much mystified.

To find a better resume: check the two last posts of the second link I gave.

I'm sorry I confused you... ...what can I say more?
Regards

User avatar
Erich
Member
Posts: 2728
Joined: 12 Mar 2002 23:28
Location: OR

Post by Erich » 14 Jan 2004 22:07

no I understand your points. Will say that pilots of JG 300 were involved in a non profitable effort to knock down the Elbe bridges in 1945. But there will be more in our book.

There are a few differences though.

Sturmstaffle 1 and the Sturmgruppen pilots were to take a sworn and written oath that if anything such as wounds, loss of armament and damge to their own Fw 190's, they would in course do what was possible to bring down a US heavy bomber, even by ramming. The Gruppenkommandeurs and Staffelkapitän's did not hold hte pilots to this.

Rammkommando Elbe was a ramming mission, but not unto death. Unarmored Bf 109's were to dive down on the tails of the B-17 formations and ramm into the tails but before this the pilots were to bail out.

The operation that I gave a hint on above with the Elbe bridges was a pure suicidal mission plain and simple but it was not carried out. Anything remotely close to the "Japanese style" is just that, not even close........their code of conduct was different.

~E

Tolga Alkan
Financial supporter
Posts: 1887
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 16:00
Location: Turkey

Post by Tolga Alkan » 15 Jan 2004 15:51

Hallo,
This two personal accounts can be found in "Jane's Battles with the Luftwaffe : The Bomber Campaign Against Germany 1942-45" by by Theo Boiten and Martin W. Bowman.Unfortunately i am not at home now and can't write exact things. remember there was a secret direction for build a rammkommando unit and only volunteers will be accept and as Erich mentioned about it is exactly a suicide mission because of the pilots wrote last letters to their parents.These are what i remember at the moment.I will bring the book in my next connect.Sorry for now.

Best
Tolga

Supremacy
Member
Posts: 25
Joined: 12 Jan 2004 20:48
Location: Europe

Post by Supremacy » 16 Jan 2004 20:45

Well i saw the complete documentation "Der Jahrhundertkrieg" on german tv....and there was one guy speaking who had the mission to sacrifice himself and destroy the bridges which were built by the russians.
He survived cuz on half of the way he decided to fly back to the airfield....

I guess its in the "Teil 5 - Luftkampf über Deutschland" Episode.

Its a nice documentation but a little bit to short...i prefer World at War.

Regards, Supremacy

Tolga Alkan
Financial supporter
Posts: 1887
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 16:00
Location: Turkey

Post by Tolga Alkan » 18 Jan 2004 15:17

The officers were called to the mess of our Danish airfield for the opening of a secret letter from the Reichmarschall.The special order of Reichmarschall was read out to us in a secluded room:
"Special operations of Luftwaffe!With this operation the fortunes of war will change.Jet Fighters!At long last the long promised change!In order to prove to the German people and the world that the German Luftwaffe is not asleep,speical operations will be flown:Ramming sorties.Only volunteers will be accepted.99% will barely survive.No guns on board!"


Erich,this is the first passage of Officer's account.May it can remind you.

all the best
Tolga

Tolga Alkan
Financial supporter
Posts: 1887
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 16:00
Location: Turkey

Post by Tolga Alkan » 12 Feb 2004 15:46

Nobody could help me around here? :(

User avatar
Erich
Member
Posts: 2728
Joined: 12 Mar 2002 23:28
Location: OR

Post by Erich » 17 Feb 2004 21:55

Tolga have been away on business and leaving again, but wanted to mention that Dr. Fritz Marktscheffel who was part of the Elbe mission is a good friend of mine. I will try to get more information for you soon. Any particular questions you would like to pose to him through me ? Fritz has been working slowly on putting a web-site together in honour of his kameraden of this mission and a similar one towards war's end.

many greetings !

~E~

Tolga Alkan
Financial supporter
Posts: 1887
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 16:00
Location: Turkey

Post by Tolga Alkan » 20 Feb 2004 11:42

Erich wrote:Tolga have been away on business and leaving again, but wanted to mention that Dr. Fritz Marktscheffel who was part of the Elbe mission is a good friend of mine. I will try to get more information for you soon. Any particular questions you would like to pose to him through me ? Fritz has been working slowly on putting a web-site together in honour of his kameraden of this mission and a similar one towards war's end.

many greetings !

~E~


Sounds very interesting,please let me collect my questions about that unit and the mission.I will send you soon.

Best Regards
Tolga

Simon Gunson
Member
Posts: 718
Joined: 23 Mar 2004 00:25
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Rammkommando Elbe

Post by Simon Gunson » 14 Apr 2004 14:43

Ram Kommando Elbe was very similar to Leonaides Staffel also known as 5.II/KG200 intended to ram Allied bombers. Similar raids were ordered on the Rhine bridge at Remagen with FW-190s carrying 1800kg bombs.
Use of the Me 328 in a Mistel combination had been intended at one point.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Simon Gunson on 15 Apr 2004 02:08, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Erich
Member
Posts: 2728
Joined: 12 Mar 2002 23:28
Location: OR

Post by Erich » 14 Apr 2004 15:53

The Remagen raid was a strange one and will be covered just a touch in our book and I believe also in the new book covering JG 300 by Lorant/Goyat............

E 8)

User avatar
Kurt_Steiner
Member
Posts: 3961
Joined: 14 Feb 2004 13:52
Location: Barcelona, Catalunya

sonderkommando elbe

Post by Kurt_Steiner » 14 Apr 2004 18:48

I don't want to mess this tread more than it is, but, this affair of the Sonderkommando elbe... what is it? A myth? A silly lie? A fact? I've read all the info I've found and, if I have to say the truth, I feel as if a Fw 190 had rammed my head...

So, in short. Is it a lie? I hope I'm not making everything begin again, but I've read something about it and I'm not sure about this fact.

Best regards

User avatar
Erich
Member
Posts: 2728
Joined: 12 Mar 2002 23:28
Location: OR

Post by Erich » 14 Apr 2004 18:52

no it existed and I have a good German friend who is writing up his memories about this mission as he was part of this disaster. Several books have been written on the subject matter and the prime point was it was un-armored Bf 109G's attacking the rear of B-17 formations with the result to shave off the tails of the Bombers and the German pilots at the last moment would bail out. It was a slaughter of German youth in April of 1945................

E, does this make sense to you ?

Return to “Luftwaffe air units and Luftwaffe in general”