ID from a German General with Mussolini in a parade

Discussions on the personalities of the Wehrmacht and of the organizations not covered in the other sections. Hosted by askropp and Frech.
User avatar
asturwaffen
Member
Posts: 231
Joined: 11 May 2003, 13:10
Location: España

ID from a German General with Mussolini in a parade

#1

Post by asturwaffen » 23 Jan 2004, 21:11

I am interested in acquiring this photo. Please somebody identifies the general German. The photo was taken while they reviewed to a unit motorized Italian before going to fight against the Soviets.


Greetings and thanks in advance.

User avatar
Stauffenberg II
Member
Posts: 3293
Joined: 03 Jan 2003, 18:43
Location: Austria

#2

Post by Stauffenberg II » 24 Jan 2004, 09:53

What about the German Military Attache to Italy, Gen. d. Inf. Enno von Rintelen?
Attachments
Rintelen.jpg
Rintelen.jpg (50.24 KiB) Viewed 1674 times


User avatar
Dieter Zinke
In memoriam
Posts: 9841
Joined: 02 Dec 2003, 10:12
Location: Koblenz / germany

#3

Post by Dieter Zinke » 24 Jan 2004, 12:43

Hi Stauffenberg II,

because I' m not sure about Rintelen here a colour pic
(source: former german journal "Kristall" in the sixties last century):
In summer 1942 Mussolini (marked with arrow) visits Tobruk. Far right is Oberst Hans Hecker (Pionierführer der Panzerarmee Afrika), the general at is left side ist General Enno von Rintelen. Look at the ribbon bar (italian decorations), look at Spange zum EK I, look at KVK II with swords.

Cheers
Oberstab
Attachments
Tobruk  2.jpg
Tobruk 2.jpg (226.97 KiB) Viewed 1664 times

User avatar
Elwyn W
Member
Posts: 3888
Joined: 11 Nov 2002, 05:33
Location: New York

#4

Post by Elwyn W » 24 Jan 2004, 17:35

Hello all,

I know I am off topic -- but the fabulous pic Oberstab shows Hans Hecker! I had posted these pics earlier on. There is definitely the resemblance between the Hecker in Oberstab's pic and the general in the Sdkfz 250/251. Both B/W pics were from a 4th Pz book, misidentified as Betzel.

If so, we have three known pics of Hecker!

cheers
Freiherr
Attachments
hecker1.jpg
hecker1.jpg (29.85 KiB) Viewed 1638 times
hecker2.jpg
hecker2.jpg (40.83 KiB) Viewed 1638 times

User avatar
Dieter Zinke
In memoriam
Posts: 9841
Joined: 02 Dec 2003, 10:12
Location: Koblenz / germany

#5

Post by Dieter Zinke » 24 Jan 2004, 19:04

Dear Freiherr,

your pics show certainly not Hecker !! Possibly Betzel. Hecker was in command (4. PD) 01.04.1945 - 00.05.1945,

Cheers
Oberstab

User avatar
Elwyn W
Member
Posts: 3888
Joined: 11 Nov 2002, 05:33
Location: New York

#6

Post by Elwyn W » 25 Jan 2004, 04:13

Hi Oberstab,

That's the frustrating part. Definitely not Betzel either. There are very many Betzel pics, almost by every two months during 44 - 45, ( e.g. Diesener, Loibl, von Gaudecker Zuch, Schaefer, etc ) in award ceremonies of other members of 4 Pz Div, as well as of himself! No way in my opinion did any of known Betzel pics resemble the general in the SPW. For fear of venturing even further off topic, how about the RKT in the pic? Could give a clue or two.

Sent you a PM. Need your help.

Cheers
Freiherr

User avatar
Dieter Zinke
In memoriam
Posts: 9841
Joined: 02 Dec 2003, 10:12
Location: Koblenz / germany

#7

Post by Dieter Zinke » 25 Jan 2004, 10:32

freiherr wrote:Hi Oberstab,

That's the frustrating part. Definitely not Betzel either. There are very many Betzel pics, almost by every two months during 44 - 45, ( e.g. Diesener, Loibl, von Gaudecker Zuch, Schaefer, etc ) in award ceremonies of other members of 4 Pz Div, as well as of himself! No way in my opinion did any of known Betzel pics resemble the general in the SPW. For fear of venturing even further off topic, how about the RKT in the pic? Could give a clue or two.

Sent you a PM. Need your help.

Cheers
Freiherr
Dear Freiherr,
last attempt: it could be the commanders of the appropriate Korps of the 4. PD !? So, the pic 2 could show Martin Gareis, KG XXXXVI. PzK, and pic 1 seems to be Walter Melzer, KG XXIII. AK. Please check the possibilities.

Best wishes,
your Oberstab

User avatar
Elwyn W
Member
Posts: 3888
Joined: 11 Nov 2002, 05:33
Location: New York

#8

Post by Elwyn W » 25 Jan 2004, 18:40

Hi Oberstab,

I like the Meltzer theory, thanks. As to Gareis, there is resemblance but in my humble opinion, the unidentified general looked a little too heavy set for Gareis. A Luftwaffe field division general? But the original definitely did not show a luftwaffe cap.

Where are Hans and Stauffenberg II and VJK and JC and Glenn, our usual expert panel?

Cheers
Freiherr

User avatar
J.N. Houterman
Member
Posts: 534
Joined: 11 May 2003, 20:19
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

#9

Post by J.N. Houterman » 25 Jan 2004, 22:07

The experts are around, but when they have nothing smart to comment, they keep quiet in their wisdom...

Or, I have no clue at all...


Cheers,

Hans

User avatar
VJK
Member
Posts: 4900
Joined: 07 Apr 2002, 16:50
Location: Riga, Latvia

#10

Post by VJK » 26 Jan 2004, 09:34

Hi!

I have to agree with Hans here, but..... here is my limited input.

1. Re the Rintelen pic (we seem to have got a little off the original topic, but it's still very interesting): I tend to agree with Stauffenberg II - the face fits and the place fits, though the lack of the Spange zum EK I and KVK II with swords does give me cause for concern.

2. Re Pics 1 & 2: Because of the lack of definition in both pics it is very difficult to be sure of a precise ID, but IMHO I don't think they are Gareis or Melzer. From Pic Nr. 2, it is not even clear that the officer is a General, though obviously a commander of some sorts.

Sorry to have just a negative input, but it's the best I can do under the circumstances.

Regards,

VJK

Mark V.
Member
Posts: 1509
Joined: 22 Apr 2002, 21:50
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia

#11

Post by Mark V. » 27 Jan 2004, 12:27

Hello!

What about Friedrich Hoßbach (KG 56.Pz.Korps)? And maybe the pictures were taken somewhere around Kovel? Just a thought.

Marko

User avatar
Richard Murphy
Member
Posts: 753
Joined: 09 Mar 2002, 20:24
Location: Bletchley, England

#12

Post by Richard Murphy » 28 Jan 2004, 02:39

freiherr wrote:Hello all,

I know I am off topic -- but the fabulous pic Oberstab shows Hans Hecker! I had posted these pics earlier on. There is definitely the resemblance between the Hecker in Oberstab's pic and the general in the Sdkfz 250/251. Both B/W pics were from a 4th Pz book, misidentified as Betzel.

If so, we have three known pics of Hecker!

cheers
Freiherr
Hmmm! Is that not a Divisional emblem on the car (I think it's a Horch.), my limited (paper) resources don't stretch that far, but the crossed Swords beneath may indicate a divisional CO as a Schwerter winner al lá "Sepp" Dietrich?

Regards from the Park,

Rich

User avatar
Elwyn W
Member
Posts: 3888
Joined: 11 Nov 2002, 05:33
Location: New York

#13

Post by Elwyn W » 28 Jan 2004, 16:50

Hi Richard,


Precisely, that's just the last ( I believe ) divisional sign of 4Pz in commemoration of von Saucken getting the swords to his RK. So it was definitely a 4Pz function.

Cheers
Freiherr

Mark V.
Member
Posts: 1509
Joined: 22 Apr 2002, 21:50
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia

#14

Post by Mark V. » 28 Jan 2004, 20:05

Looking at trees (with leaves) the photos must have been taken sometime between late spring and early fall. Also the house on the first picture looks more like central European :| (or not?).

During this period the division was subordinated to next commanding generals:

Hossbach (56.Pz.Korps),
Harteneck (1.Kav.Korps),
Vormann (Gruppe Vormann),
Felzamnn (Korpsgruppe Felzmann),
v.Saucken (39.Pz.Korps).

Cheers

User avatar
Elwyn W
Member
Posts: 3888
Joined: 11 Nov 2002, 05:33
Location: New York

#15

Post by Elwyn W » 08 Mar 2004, 01:52

Hi DrG

In Oberstab's fantastic colour pic, could it be FM Etorre Bastico ( second from left ) and his rather rotund chief of staff Gastone Gambara? (first from left )

Cheers
Freiherr

Post Reply

Return to “The Dieter Zinke Axis Biographical Research Section”