Kaan:
Your casulaty figures for the Ottomans seems a bit high - Erikkson, using Ottoman sources, comes up with:
KIA: 56,643
Wounded: 97,007
Missing: 11,178
That matches the figures from von Sanders' memoires as well.
I wonder if your wounded numbers include minor (non-crippling) injuries - also, the Entente casualties seem lower than usually listed.
From where are your numbers?
Gallipoli Wars
-
Kaan Caglar
- Member
- Posts: 2136
- Joined: 10 Jul 2003 23:14
- Location: Izmir,Turkey
Pasham:
My source is "Genelkurmay Başkanlığı-Birinci Dünya Harbinde Osmanlı Ordusu" which is "Turkish General Staff-Turkish Army in The Great War"
But I'll be checking them again, the numbers are very different with Eriksonns. A misunderstanding may have caused this. I'll have the exact numbers this weekend.
I'm glad you are still with us. I thought you left.
Best Regards
Kaan
My source is "Genelkurmay Başkanlığı-Birinci Dünya Harbinde Osmanlı Ordusu" which is "Turkish General Staff-Turkish Army in The Great War"
But I'll be checking them again, the numbers are very different with Eriksonns. A misunderstanding may have caused this. I'll have the exact numbers this weekend.
I'm glad you are still with us. I thought you left.
Best Regards
Kaan
-
Kaan Caglar
- Member
- Posts: 2136
- Joined: 10 Jul 2003 23:14
- Location: Izmir,Turkey
-
Volklin
- Member
- Posts: 799
- Joined: 18 Apr 2004 01:24
-
tracker4502
- Member
- Posts: 5
- Joined: 16 Oct 2004 02:34
- Location: USA
Wow, Great job!
Nice job on research, Kaan! Great work with the pictures and statistics! A great overview of the campaign.
-
Kaan Caglar
- Member
- Posts: 2136
- Joined: 10 Jul 2003 23:14
- Location: Izmir,Turkey
-
Anzac
- Member
- Posts: 264
- Joined: 01 Jun 2004 15:54
- Location: Australia
Talking about Gallipoli i've discovered that my Uncle Ted served at Gallipoli from the day of the landing.
His real name was Edmund Mudd, details are posted below.
Number : 161
Rank : Sapper
Age : 26
Trade or Calling : Carpenter
Married or Single : Single
Next of Kin & Address : E.Mudd, Norfolk House, 494 Foxhall Road, Ipswich, England.
Religion : Church of England
Date of Joining : 21 August 1914
Unit : 2nd Field Company Australian Engineers
and later on found out that he came ashore at Gallipoli at 7:30am on April 25th. He was under the 2nd Infantry Brigade, Australian Imperial Force.
2nd Infantry Brigade, Australian Imperial Force
5th (Victoria) Battalion (7:00am)
6th (Victoria) Battalion (6:00am)
7th (Victoria) Battalion (5:30am)
8th (Victoria) Battalion (7:30am)
2nd Field Company, Engineers (Victoria)
Dawkins Point is named after a Lieutenant in his unit.
Dawkins' Point - Southern Anzac sector. On Brighton Beach, about 600 yards south of Hell Spit. Named after Lieutenant William Henry Dawkins, of the Australian Engineers, who was killed here on 12th May 1915.
Just my little bit about Gallipoli....
#RP#
His real name was Edmund Mudd, details are posted below.
Number : 161
Rank : Sapper
Age : 26
Trade or Calling : Carpenter
Married or Single : Single
Next of Kin & Address : E.Mudd, Norfolk House, 494 Foxhall Road, Ipswich, England.
Religion : Church of England
Date of Joining : 21 August 1914
Unit : 2nd Field Company Australian Engineers
and later on found out that he came ashore at Gallipoli at 7:30am on April 25th. He was under the 2nd Infantry Brigade, Australian Imperial Force.
2nd Infantry Brigade, Australian Imperial Force
5th (Victoria) Battalion (7:00am)
6th (Victoria) Battalion (6:00am)
7th (Victoria) Battalion (5:30am)
8th (Victoria) Battalion (7:30am)
2nd Field Company, Engineers (Victoria)
Dawkins Point is named after a Lieutenant in his unit.
Dawkins' Point - Southern Anzac sector. On Brighton Beach, about 600 yards south of Hell Spit. Named after Lieutenant William Henry Dawkins, of the Australian Engineers, who was killed here on 12th May 1915.
Just my little bit about Gallipoli....
#RP#
-
bob lembke
- In memoriam
- Posts: 774
- Joined: 31 Oct 2004 18:53
- Location: Philadelphia, PA
Sources for Gallipoli
Guys;
I have fairly well exhausted the Gallipoli sources that I have found in English, German, and French. Did I hear about a three volume military history of WW I published by the Turkish General Staff in English? Or am I only having a fantasy? Turkish, of course, itself is astonishingly hard.
My father served in the German volunteer Pionier=Kompagnie that served there. Anyone knowing anything about this unit and its service please post something or PM me.
Bob Lembke
I have fairly well exhausted the Gallipoli sources that I have found in English, German, and French. Did I hear about a three volume military history of WW I published by the Turkish General Staff in English? Or am I only having a fantasy? Turkish, of course, itself is astonishingly hard.
My father served in the German volunteer Pionier=Kompagnie that served there. Anyone knowing anything about this unit and its service please post something or PM me.
Bob Lembke
-
Abdul Hadi Pasha
- Member
- Posts: 116
- Joined: 22 Apr 2003 21:44
- Location: New York, NY
Re: Sources for Gallipoli
Turkish isn't really astonishingly hard, it's just astonishingly alien - the grammar is not terribly conplicated and is fairly regular; but you have to think very differently than you do speaking an indo-European language.bob lembke wrote:Guys;
I have fairly well exhausted the Gallipoli sources that I have found in English, German, and French. Did I hear about a three volume military history of WW I published by the Turkish General Staff in English? Or am I only having a fantasy? Turkish, of course, itself is astonishingly hard.
My father served in the German volunteer Pionier=Kompagnie that served there. Anyone knowing anything about this unit and its service please post something or PM me.
Bob Lembke
For instance, "I have a car" is literally "my car extant (is)".
-
Kaan Caglar
- Member
- Posts: 2136
- Joined: 10 Jul 2003 23:14
- Location: Izmir,Turkey
Re: Sources for Gallipoli
Hey Bob,bob lembke wrote:Guys;
I have fairly well exhausted the Gallipoli sources that I have found in English, German, and French. Did I hear about a three volume military history of WW I published by the Turkish General Staff in English? Or am I only having a fantasy? Turkish, of course, itself is astonishingly hard.
My father served in the German volunteer Pionier=Kompagnie that served there. Anyone knowing anything about this unit and its service please post something or PM me.
Bob Lembke
You're not having a fantasy;) Its true that Turkish General Staff published about six or seven volume military history of WWI, which only covers the Fronts which Turks actually fought, back 1970s. The three volume of this set covers the Gallipoli Front. Its hard to access them though, even here in Turkey you can only find them in big libraries. But I believe nowadays the General Staff is planning to republish them
Regards
-
bob lembke
- In memoriam
- Posts: 774
- Joined: 31 Oct 2004 18:53
- Location: Philadelphia, PA
Turkish
Dear Abdul;
You are too modest about the complexities of Turkish. I know very little, although the last time I was in Istanbul I was beginning to make sense of signs in the street by the time I left. I was able to communicate in English, German, and, surprisingly, Serbo-croatian.
However, I have a wonderful wife, Megan, who reads 11 languages well, and dozens more poorly. But she is as smart as a small town is collectively (wrote first two books of poetry at the age of five years ) and reads foreign languages at work all day for 20 years. She considered learning Turkish, as it would have been useful at work, but is now working on Arabic.
She says that languages have modes or phases, called different things in different languages, but often called "cases" or "voices". English, the largest language, has three. German (I think the second largest language) has the very complex Latin grammar, and those two languages have eight cases each. Megan says that Turkish has 47! Ouch!!!
We all know how in German they build very long compound words by adding prefixes on the front and suffixes on the rear of a word. Megan says that in Turkish "in-fixes" are also used, sticking modifying syllables in the middle of words.
Then there is "vowel harmony". Supposedly, after a sentence is conceived, it then has to be modified, before being spoken, by a set of rules that we cannot even imagine so that it has a certain "sing-song" harmony when uttered.
Megan, ever-wise, has two comments about Turkish (she has been there). She calls it "Mongolian with a Swedish accent" and a language "invented by people with too much time on their hands".
Additionally, there is the matter of all of the Arabic and Persian that the Turks have stuck in their language. I speak a bit of Arabic (Our idiot government just wrote me to sign up to go to Iraq as an interpreter, and they have been mailing me social security for over three years!) but the only place I have been able to read Arabic is in Turkey, where the script was thankfully changed to the Latin by Mustafa Kemal Atatürk in the 1920's. So I can read some of the Turkish words that are from the Arabic.
When the Turkish gentleman found, in a flea-market, the 1915 war diary that became the interesting book Lone Pine Diary, it took him months to find someone (in Istanbul) who could transliterate it into modern Turkish.
However, in spoken Turkish, the process is improved, in general, by the great friendliness of the Turkish people, and their pleasure at someone attempting to use a bit of their great language. (This is in sharp contrast to many Parisians, at least in the 1070's, but that is another story.)
I speak a bit of Mandrin and Cantonese Chinese, and I, completely subjectively, would rate spoken Turkish as 100 times as hard as spoken Mandrin, and 50 times as hard as spoken Cantonese.
Having said that, I would love to know this great language. But even I, who suffer from the "Peter Pan complex", realize that I do not have enough years left to tackle it in any serious way.
Anyone (Kaan?) have an exact citation for the General Staff series on Gallipoli, so I can look for it on abebooks.com or elsewhere?
Last September I was able to talk to (through a translating enlisted man) with the colonel commanding the Military Library at the Askeri Müze (Military Museum) in Istanbul (Great place, my third visit! Both the city and the museum.), and was told that to use the Library I would have to get approval from the General Staff in Ankara (this despite the General Staff having an enormous office building right down the street from the Museum), when I asked how to approach the General Staff, I was told, in effect, "On the Internet, dummy!" The wonderful world of the Internet.
Bob Lembke
You are too modest about the complexities of Turkish. I know very little, although the last time I was in Istanbul I was beginning to make sense of signs in the street by the time I left. I was able to communicate in English, German, and, surprisingly, Serbo-croatian.
However, I have a wonderful wife, Megan, who reads 11 languages well, and dozens more poorly. But she is as smart as a small town is collectively (wrote first two books of poetry at the age of five years ) and reads foreign languages at work all day for 20 years. She considered learning Turkish, as it would have been useful at work, but is now working on Arabic.
She says that languages have modes or phases, called different things in different languages, but often called "cases" or "voices". English, the largest language, has three. German (I think the second largest language) has the very complex Latin grammar, and those two languages have eight cases each. Megan says that Turkish has 47! Ouch!!!
We all know how in German they build very long compound words by adding prefixes on the front and suffixes on the rear of a word. Megan says that in Turkish "in-fixes" are also used, sticking modifying syllables in the middle of words.
Then there is "vowel harmony". Supposedly, after a sentence is conceived, it then has to be modified, before being spoken, by a set of rules that we cannot even imagine so that it has a certain "sing-song" harmony when uttered.
Megan, ever-wise, has two comments about Turkish (she has been there). She calls it "Mongolian with a Swedish accent" and a language "invented by people with too much time on their hands".
Additionally, there is the matter of all of the Arabic and Persian that the Turks have stuck in their language. I speak a bit of Arabic (Our idiot government just wrote me to sign up to go to Iraq as an interpreter, and they have been mailing me social security for over three years!) but the only place I have been able to read Arabic is in Turkey, where the script was thankfully changed to the Latin by Mustafa Kemal Atatürk in the 1920's. So I can read some of the Turkish words that are from the Arabic.
When the Turkish gentleman found, in a flea-market, the 1915 war diary that became the interesting book Lone Pine Diary, it took him months to find someone (in Istanbul) who could transliterate it into modern Turkish.
However, in spoken Turkish, the process is improved, in general, by the great friendliness of the Turkish people, and their pleasure at someone attempting to use a bit of their great language. (This is in sharp contrast to many Parisians, at least in the 1070's, but that is another story.)
I speak a bit of Mandrin and Cantonese Chinese, and I, completely subjectively, would rate spoken Turkish as 100 times as hard as spoken Mandrin, and 50 times as hard as spoken Cantonese.
Having said that, I would love to know this great language. But even I, who suffer from the "Peter Pan complex", realize that I do not have enough years left to tackle it in any serious way.
Anyone (Kaan?) have an exact citation for the General Staff series on Gallipoli, so I can look for it on abebooks.com or elsewhere?
Last September I was able to talk to (through a translating enlisted man) with the colonel commanding the Military Library at the Askeri Müze (Military Museum) in Istanbul (Great place, my third visit! Both the city and the museum.), and was told that to use the Library I would have to get approval from the General Staff in Ankara (this despite the General Staff having an enormous office building right down the street from the Museum), when I asked how to approach the General Staff, I was told, in effect, "On the Internet, dummy!" The wonderful world of the Internet.
Bob Lembke
-
Jul
- New member
- Posts: 1
- Joined: 09 Mar 2005 01:24
- Location: Belgium
To all members
And especially to those who congratulated Kaan Caglar on his brilliant overview of the Gallipoli Campaign.
I think it is only fair to draw your attention to the fact that for more than a year now, you have all been swindled by this young man. Perhaps you did not notice the sudden miraculous change from the poor English in his first postings to the present standard. There is however a simple explanation for his sudden linguistic progress.
His overview of the Gallipoli Campaign was simply stolen WORD FOR WORD, together with a number of pictures from my website. If you want to verify this fact for yourself, just have a look at :
http://users.skynet.be/Gallipoli/hist/histit.htm
and draw your own conclusions. As a bonus, you will also find there the rest of the campaign, for which, as he informed you ‘he hoped to find the time to write it’.
In simple words, what we have here is theft of copyrighted material. Or if you want to put it in even simpler words : Kaan Caglar is an ordinary impostor who, driven by a sick urge to impress people, resorted to stealing my work. In doing so, he was not even clever enough to change the text in order to avoid detection.
As a serious historian, I can therefore only pity him for this pathetic attempt to get into the spotlights. Yes, I know that it is not polite to abuse people on this forum, but I leave it to the administrators to draw their conclusions. After all, they have to guard the quality of this otherwise fine forum.
Unfortunately for Kaan Caglar himself, part of the material involved was not only placed on the Web, but also published in written form. Certain publishers in Turkey will certainly be interested in this infringement on their copyright. He will therefore in due course be asked for an explanation if not more.
I thought it was my duty to bring this to your notice.
For those of you with a real, genuine interest in researching the 1915 campaign : keep up the good work.
Jul Snelders
snelders@glo.be
http://users.skynet.be/Gallipoli/
And especially to those who congratulated Kaan Caglar on his brilliant overview of the Gallipoli Campaign.
I think it is only fair to draw your attention to the fact that for more than a year now, you have all been swindled by this young man. Perhaps you did not notice the sudden miraculous change from the poor English in his first postings to the present standard. There is however a simple explanation for his sudden linguistic progress.
His overview of the Gallipoli Campaign was simply stolen WORD FOR WORD, together with a number of pictures from my website. If you want to verify this fact for yourself, just have a look at :
http://users.skynet.be/Gallipoli/hist/histit.htm
and draw your own conclusions. As a bonus, you will also find there the rest of the campaign, for which, as he informed you ‘he hoped to find the time to write it’.
In simple words, what we have here is theft of copyrighted material. Or if you want to put it in even simpler words : Kaan Caglar is an ordinary impostor who, driven by a sick urge to impress people, resorted to stealing my work. In doing so, he was not even clever enough to change the text in order to avoid detection.
As a serious historian, I can therefore only pity him for this pathetic attempt to get into the spotlights. Yes, I know that it is not polite to abuse people on this forum, but I leave it to the administrators to draw their conclusions. After all, they have to guard the quality of this otherwise fine forum.
Unfortunately for Kaan Caglar himself, part of the material involved was not only placed on the Web, but also published in written form. Certain publishers in Turkey will certainly be interested in this infringement on their copyright. He will therefore in due course be asked for an explanation if not more.
I thought it was my duty to bring this to your notice.
For those of you with a real, genuine interest in researching the 1915 campaign : keep up the good work.
Jul Snelders
snelders@glo.be
http://users.skynet.be/Gallipoli/
-
Gwynn Compton
- Member
- Posts: 2840
- Joined: 10 Mar 2002 22:46
- Location: United Kingdom
-
Kaan Caglar
- Member
- Posts: 2136
- Joined: 10 Jul 2003 23:14
- Location: Izmir,Turkey
Dear moderators and fellow members of AHF,
I must inform you that Mr.Snelders is telling the truth on his accusations about me stealing copyrighted material and posting them as mine. I edited/deleted all the material and replaced them with links to which I got them.
I actually took them from the site and added some pictures from the net and posted them as mine. I apologise for this childishness and hope not to be banned but become a former member.
Kaan
I must inform you that Mr.Snelders is telling the truth on his accusations about me stealing copyrighted material and posting them as mine. I edited/deleted all the material and replaced them with links to which I got them.
I actually took them from the site and added some pictures from the net and posted them as mine. I apologise for this childishness and hope not to be banned but become a former member.
Kaan
-
Tosun Saral
- Member
- Posts: 4057
- Joined: 02 Nov 2005 19:32
- Location: Ankara/Turkey
A late information:Kaan Caglar wrote:Hi Matt,
Nice photos,
The title says,
"Halt Traveller,
This soil,which you come and step on unconsciusly,
is where an age has ended."
The line below,
"Çanakkale can not be passed!" A famous quote after the war.
Best Regards
Kaan
HALT TRAVELLER!
To a Traveller!
If you enter the Strait of Dardanelles from Aegean Sea you will see on the right the Hills of Canakkale and on the left the Gallipoli Peninsula. On the Hills of Canakkale you will notice a warning in capital letters colored with white chalk " Halt Traveller!" This warns all people who desires to enter the Dardanelles without permission. In March 18th 1915 British and French tried to enter the dardanelles without permission and paid their desire with blood and heavy losses. After that bloody fight a Turkish poet called Necmettin Halil Onan wrote the following poem. The poem is translated into English by Tanwir Wasti published by the March 18th University Magazine 2003
To a Traveller
Stop wayfarer ! Unbeknownst to you this ground
You come and tread on, is where an epoch lies;
Bend down and lend your ear, for this silent mound
Is the place where the heart of a nation sighs
To the left of this deserted shadeless lane
The Anatolian slope now observe you well;
For liberty and honor, it is, in pain,
Where wounded Mehmet (x) laid down his and fell
This very mound, when violently shhok the land,
When the last bit of earth passed from hand to hand,
And when Mehmet drowned the enemy in flood,
Is the spot where he added his own pure blood.
Think, the consecrated blood and flesh and bone
That make up this mould, is where a whole nation,
After a harsh and pitiless war, alone,
Tasted the joyje of freedom with elation.
(x) Mehmet is the commen name given to Turkish Soldier.
http://members.virtualtourist.com/m/7d696/1c1cb1/