Internment of enemy civillians

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Panzermahn
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Internment of enemy civillians

Post by Panzermahn » 01 Feb 2004 03:31

Can anyone shed more info on the internment of enemy civillians in Britain or other countries?

How about the fate of German, Finnish, Romania, Hungary, Bulgarian, Slovakian civillians in Britain during WW2?

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Harri
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Post by Harri » 01 Feb 2004 17:45

Finns were interned in all those countries who were officially in war with us. Between 12.1941 and 9.1944 Finns living or visiting (usually sailors) in Britain and Australia were held in camps which were hardly guarded because Finns were not considered to a majot threat. I'm not sure about the situation in Canada, South Africa etc. Finland had a very large merchant fleet before the war and many Finnish sailors and their ships were interned all around the world.

USSR is a bit different case because Finns were both interned and imprisoned but on the other hand they also fought in Red Army against Germans and especially Finns. Soviet 54th Division was largely led and manned by Finns and Karelians.

After 4.9.1944 when Finland signed a peace agreement with USSR most Finns in Germany were captured and sent to concentration camps.

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Cammin1
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Post by Cammin1 » 02 Feb 2004 00:45

Lots of Japenesse were locked up here in the U.S., especially the ones that lived on the west coast.

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DrG
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Post by DrG » 02 Feb 2004 12:52

Italians emigrants were present almost everywhere in the British Empire, and were interned after the Italian declaration of war on UK, 10 June 1940 (but the Daily mail had started attacking Italians, also with racistic tones, already in April 1940). Churchill ordered: "Collar the lot!".
The worst tragedy for Italian interees in Britain was the sinking of the Arandora Star, that was deporting them in Australia. 486 out of 784 Italians died.
Italians in Britain
Italians in Scotland
Italians in Canada (maybe the most harsh of the internement in the Commonwealth; this caused an higher support to Fascism from Italo-Canadians. Internees at a camp in Petawawa, Ontario, often sang: "We march along with Germany as one; / In brotherhood with honest men and true ... / We are the sons of Italy reborn, ... / If our adopted land treats us with scorn, / The Duce will defend us in the fray.")
Italians in Australia
Italians in Tanzania

Of course a large number of Italians was interned or transferred in places far from their homes (if they lived near the coast) also in the USA, but the treatement was usually better than in the British Empire, Italians in the USA.
Even the mayor of San Francisco was interrogated about his alleged Fascist simpaties. Secret papers reveal little known WWII Italian hearings.

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Post by David Thompson » 02 Feb 2004 17:05

For interested readers, there is an FBI overview (about 650 pps. long) of the WWII custodial detention programs in the United States available in pdf format at:

http://foia.fbi.gov/custodet.htm

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 05 Feb 2004 03:35

Harri wrote:Finns were interned in all those countries who were officially in war with us. Between 12.1941 and 9.1944 Finns living or visiting (usually sailors) in Britain and Australia were held in camps which were hardly guarded because Finns were not considered to a majot threat. I'm not sure about the situation in Canada, South Africa etc. Finland had a very large merchant fleet before the war and many Finnish sailors and their ships were interned all around the world.

USSR is a bit different case because Finns were both interned and imprisoned but on the other hand they also fought in Red Army against Germans and especially Finns. Soviet 54th Division was largely led and manned by Finns and Karelians.

After 4.9.1944 when Finland signed a peace agreement with USSR most Finns in Germany were captured and sent to concentration camps.
Soviet citezens whom remained on the territory ocupied by Finalnd were hoarded into concentartion camps.

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Harri
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Post by Harri » 05 Feb 2004 18:55

oleg wrote:Soviet citezens whom remained on the territory ocupied by Finalnd were hoarded into concentartion camps.
Oleg, Oleg... :)

As we all know the truth is not so simple you try to make us believe again. That thread is not about the Soviets interned by the Finns which has been handled elsewhere in this forum. I just have to say once again that the Finnish name of the "camps" (they were mainly enclosed blocks) does not mean they would have been similar to Soviet or German concentration camps - or even close to them.

So, it is not very relevant to mention about that in this discussion. Finns interned mainly Russians or politically unreliable Soviet people. Interning enemy citizens was a normal policy in most countries in war. The reasons for "concentrating" (note the word!) selected people to certain guarded areas are also well explained in other threads. Some of the interned ones belonged to Soviet administration who had given orders for the Finnish occupation (they were mainly women). They for example had orders to continue supervising local people, arrange sabotages and reconnoitre Finnish military. Without interning unreliable people there would have been much more problems with Soviet partisans which now should operate without local support.

It is perhaps worth mentioning that after the war Soviets didn't accuse Finns about these "camps" but they have come into discussion rather recently. One "victim" for example sent a letter to Finnish State President and wrote that he/she demands a new Mercededs-Benz car for compensation of Finnish atrocities against him/her during WW II. He/she just couldn't prove that he/she had even been there during WW II. That perhaps explains something about why these stories about "Finnish concentration camps" rise to live over and over again... :P

----

Back to the topic:

I was a bit inaccurate when I mentioned about Finns in USSR. Of course only those who had changed their citizenship could live outside camps in strict supervision or be in the Red Army. Finnish citizens living in USSR for sure had only a very little possibility to live in peace. Much more than 50.000 Ingrian Finns (citizens of USSR) were moved to Finland during the war but they had to be relieved to USSR afterwards. They were not interned in Finland.

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Post by Mark V » 05 Feb 2004 19:14

Harri wrote:One "victim" for example sent a letter to Finnish State President and wrote that he/she demands a new Mercededs-Benz car for compensation of Finnish atrocities against him/her during WW II.
Oh Lord, Won’t You Buy Me a Mercedes-Benz… :lol:

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 05 Feb 2004 20:20

Harri wrote:
oleg wrote:Soviet citezens whom remained on the territory ocupied by Finalnd were hoarded into concentartion camps.
Oleg, Oleg... :)

As we all know the truth is not so simple you try to make us believe again. That thread is not about the Soviets interned by the Finns which has been handled elsewhere in this forum. I just have to say once again that the Finnish name of the "camps" (they were mainly enclosed blocks) does not mean they would have been similar to Soviet or German concentration camps - or even close to them.

So, it is not very relevant to mention about that in this discussion. Finns interned mainly Russians or politically unreliable Soviet people. Interning enemy citizens was a normal policy in most countries in war. The reasons for "concentrating" (note the word!) selected people to certain guarded areas are also well explained in other threads. Some of the interned ones belonged to Soviet administration who had given orders for the Finnish occupation (they were mainly women). They for example had orders to continue supervising local people, arrange sabotages and reconnoitre Finnish military. Without interning unreliable people there would have been much more problems with Soviet partisans which now should operate without local support.

It is perhaps worth mentioning that after the war Soviets didn't accuse Finns about these "camps" but they have come into discussion rather recently. One "victim" for example sent a letter to Finnish State President and wrote that he/she demands a new Mercededs-Benz car for compensation of Finnish atrocities against him/her during WW II. He/she just couldn't prove that he/she had even been there during WW II. That perhaps explains something about why these stories about "Finnish concentration camps" rise to live over and over again... :P

----

Back to the topic:

I was a bit inaccurate when I mentioned about Finns in USSR. Of course only those who had changed their citizenship could live outside camps in strict supervision or be in the Red Army. Finnish citizens living in USSR for sure had only a very little possibility to live in peace. Much more than 50.000 Ingrian Finns (citizens of USSR) were moved to Finland during the war but they had to be relieved to USSR afterwards. They were not interned in Finland.
this thread named " Internment of enemy civillians" - as far as Finalnd was concerend Sovitcitezens on the territory occupied by Finalnd were enemey civillinas. So how is it not relevent?

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Harri
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Post by Harri » 05 Feb 2004 20:26

oleg wrote:this thread named " Internment of enemy civillians" - as far as Finalnd was concerend Sovitcitezens on the territory occupied by Finalnd were enemey civillinas. So how is it not relevent?
OK, it fits to the topic. But check the panzermahn's questions (even I was off topic in my answer).

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Post by David Thompson » 05 Feb 2004 20:36

A certain amount of off-topic discussion is fine, but when the topic changes completely, we need another thread to accommodate it.

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 05 Feb 2004 21:36

oleg wrote:Soviet citezens whom remained on the territory ocupied by Finalnd were hoarded into concentartion camps.
Wrong.

Only a small minority of Soviet citezens whom remained on the territory ocupied by Finalnd were interned.
Right.

Regards, Juha

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Harri
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Post by Harri » 05 Feb 2004 21:56

I don't personally have anything against off topic discussions (I have been involved in them in too many occasions :wink: ) but I felt Oleg's comment was more or less "hostile".

Why? Because the original Finnish name of the internation camp ("concentration camp") is over and over again used so like they would be similar to the true Soviet and German concentration camps. When that coincidence was noticed in Finland during the war the name was changed to "transfer camp". People in these small camps were waiting for the transfer to German occupied Russia. Finns in turn received Ingrian Finns from Germans and they were returned to USSR after the war as I mentioned. Happenings during the war prevented planned transfers to German occupied Russia and interned people had to stay in these temporary camps much longer than was originally planned. Most problems in these camps were based on their temporary character not their "intention" or name.

Just add that many people in the area Finns occupied didn't "remain" there accidentally, they were ordered to stay and begin working against Finns or helping those who worked against Finns.
Last edited by Harri on 05 Feb 2004 22:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 05 Feb 2004 22:01

Juha Tompuri wrote:
oleg wrote:Soviet citezens whom remained on the territory ocupied by Finalnd were hoarded into concentartion camps.
Wrong.

Only a small minority of Soviet citezens whom remained on the territory ocupied by Finalnd were interned.
Right.

Regards, Juha
am I now?

as of November 1941 there was 11666 people in Finish concentartion camps
as of Decmeber of the same year - 20005 -mostly Russians.
In march of 1942 number grew to 23984. The number dropped to 15420 by the beggining of 1943 due to rather high moratlity rate and due to distrbution of the camp poulation to camps of the other kinds. In general during its pick cmap population ammounted to 27% of all occupied population.

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Harri
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Post by Harri » 05 Feb 2004 22:33

oleg wrote:am I now?
You are what?
oleg wrote:The number dropped to 15420 by the beggining of 1943 due to rather high moratlity rate and due to distrbution of the camp poulation to camps of the other kinds. In general during its pick cmap population ammounted to 27% of all occupied population.
OK. But I don't think there would have been very many kinds of camps?

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