Nazi gas chambers

[Lucius Felix Silla]

Dear Mr. David Thompson,

The topic here, if i'm not wrong, is "Nazi gas chambers".
So i'm entirely correct - in my opinion, naturally - when i asked for documentary proofs about the existence of homicidal gas chambers in Auschwitz I or in Birkenau.

I have answer to Your questions im my reply (not directly, i must concede) but if You want a more direct style, that's no problem :

1) Everyone here - i suspect - want known if exists a documentary proof about the existence of homicidal gas chambers and will known this evidence for his agenda (not for mine).
2) In a trial, not all is based upon documentary evidence, that's true.
But a court verdict isn't a historical truth nor a sacred truth, in my opinion. Is only a juridical answer to a question: is guilty or not this man (or those men)?
I see You have a different opinion in this matter: when i have asked for proofs about the supposed existence of gas chambers in Majdanek, You have replied with reference to a verdict of Dusseldorf Court. In my opinion, this proves nothing: we can only say that a German Court in mid 1960's has been persuaded about the existence of gas chambers in Majdanek to kill people.
But we known that a court opinion can be persuaded by much factors and the history is full of examples of errors, mistakes and horribles facts committed by judges and courts.
3-4) I don't want dismiss others forms of available evidence. I want only known, i repeat, if in matter of homicidal gas chambers, we have other evidence than eyewitness accounts or postwar confessions (and in the event of Höss confessions i have, on another thread, demonstrated that
are unreliables).

So, my questions are always there, waiting for an answer.

Best Regards

LFS

P.S. As our Majdanek thread, i have answer to Your questions. I have quoted and reproduced numerous german documents which demonstrates that the Majdanek gas chambers are only dealousing gas chambers. Pressac same seems doubt about the existence of homicidal gas chambers in Majdanek. See "Les carences et incompétences du rapport Leuchter", published in Jour J, 12 décembre 1988, pp. V-XII.

[Karl]

if in matter of homicidal gas chambers, we have other evidence than eyewitness accounts or postwar confessions (and in the event of Höss confessions i have, on another thread, demonstrated that
are unreliables).

Where can I find this please.

[Lucius Felix Silla]

Dear Mr. Karl,

See http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=26942

Best Regards

LFS

[Karl]

Thank you.

So, you think Höß was tortured?

[David Thompson]

Please post any discussion on the Hoess torture claim on one of these threads:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=26942
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=23580
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=12242
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=5408
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=334

The latest discussion on the existence of homicidal gas chambers at Majdanek may be found at:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=18281

[Lucius Felix Silla]

Needless to say, none can show a documentary proof about the existence of homicidal gas chambers in Auschwitz I and Birkenau?

I don't known best method to reduce in silence the revisionist scholarship.

So we can close this topic and move on new topic.

I remember that much time ago, i have promised an analysis about Ziereis' "confessions" about gas chambers in Mauthausen.
Time is come to go back in this topic.

Best Regards

LFS

[David Thompson]

Lucius Felix Silla -- You said:

Needless to say, none can show a documentary proof about the existence of homicidal gas chambers in Auschwitz I and Birkenau?

Needless to say, you haven't followed up on the reference -- Jean-Claude Pressac, Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers, The Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, New York: 1989, gives 39 documentary proofs at pp. 429-457 of that work.

[xcalibur]

Needless to say, none can show a documentary proof about the existence of homicidal gas chambers in Auschwitz I and Birkenau?

Perhaps not. Or perhaps it's just that everyone is bored silly by continually going over and over the Hoess testimony, which, so far seems to be the only "proof" you offer for the assertion that "there is no documentary evidence for the existence of homicidal gas chambers at Auschwitz.".

[Lucius Felix Silla]

Dear Mr. David Thompson,

So, the documentary evidence about the existence of gas chambers in Auschwitz would be offered by the overcited work of Jean-Claude Pressac.

Before an in deep analysis of these presumed proofs, a more general consideration which in himself destroy the herculean effort of Pressac.

The title of the chapter (see chapter 8, p.429) dedicated by Pressac to his recollection of presumed documentary "proofs" speak for himself:
" <<One proof...one single proof>>: Thirty-Nine CRIMINAL TRACES (emphasis added, LSF: the reference of the title in brackets is to the challenge lauched in 1979 by Prof. Robert Faurisson through the pages by the popular french newsdaily "Le Monde" ).

Yes, dear members, You have read well:instead of 39 PROOFS (or more simply, only 1), 39 CRIMINAL TRACES!

What signify this curious expression?
Signify, tells us Pressac, "presumptive evidence" or "indirect proofs[/i]" (emphasis added,LSF).
Amazing.

He must admits that not a single one of the numerous plans of the Krema of Auschwitz indicates "explicitly" (p.429, sic) the use of homicidal gas chambers.
Also he writes that "the <<traditional>> historians provided him [Prof. Robert Faurisson, LSF] an <<abundance of proofs>> which were virtually all based on human testimony" (ibidem).
Also some photographs passed as proofs of the existence of homicidal gas chambers cannot be "presented as definitive proof" (ibidem).
So, what remain, can ask one intelligent student? Say Pressac: "In the final analysis, there remain only the various items of corrispondence and official documents of German origin. Through the <<slips>> that can be found in them, they form a convincing body of presumptive evidence and clearly indicate the presence in the four Birkenau Krematorien (II, III, IV and V) of gas chambers using a prussic acid disinfestation agent sold under the name of <<Zyclon-B>> (ibidem).
But assures Pressac, in "the absence of any <<direct>>, i.e. palpable, indisputable and evident proof (...) an <<indirect>> proof may suffice and be valid" (p.429. emphasis added).
At this point, the poor reader, for the next 30 pages, see himself flooded by an enumeration (highly speculative, perhaps) of disparate objects founded in various german documents, objects which, sometimes, the same Pressac can't explicate and understand, as we see in next days.

So, what we can concludes?
Basically, that, for admission of Pressac same, don't exist any documentary proof (or better, any proof) of the existence of homicidal gas chambers in Auschwitz or in Birkenau.
But also that only at the time of the witchcraft trials, these examples of adminicula (parts of proof, presumptions, traces) have anyone significance and validity: so the black cat, the smell of sulphur or others stupidities have induced many judges or ordinary people to trust in the existence of wizards, demons and witchcrafts.

Best Regards

LFS

P.S. Mr. xcalibur, don't worry in next days and next posts i don't go continually over the Hoess testimony....

[szopen]

What about traces of Zyklon B found in ruins of buildings in alleged gas chambers, and not found in control samples from barracks, in research done by Polish Institute in 1994 http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/orgs/poli ... ter.report

Usually revisionists quote only first reports from 1990 and ignore the report from 1994.

[Lucius Felix Silla]

Dear Mr. Szopen,

I'm not chemist nor a revisionist, but i think you can try at
http://vho.org/GB/Books/trr/index.html
and see the so called "Rudolf-Gutachten"or in english "Rudolf rapport" for an answer to Your questions.

Best Regards

LFS

[szopen]

But you have read the Nizkor analysis on gas chambers, aren't you?

[Lucius Felix Silla]

Dear Mr. Szopen,

Yes, i have read. For mentality, i read always both sides arguments'.

Best Regards

LFS

[Lucius Felix Silla]

1) Vergasungskeller *

As criminal trace that "gas chamber" was part of the crematory installations in Birkenau, Pressac reproduced and comments a letter from the Central Construction Office of the SS and Police in Auschwitz to SS-Brigadeführer Hans Kammler, Chief of Amtsgruppe C of the SS Economic and Administrative Main Office. This report, dated January 29, 1943 and signed by SS-Sturmbannfuhrer Karl Bischoff, head of the Central Construction Office in Auschwitz, reads as follows (cfr. Pressac for discussion, pp.211-217 and 432):

“Das Krematoriurn II wurde unter Einsatz aller vetfügbaren Krafte trotz un sagbarer Schwierigkeiten und Frostwetter bei Tag- und Nachtbetrieb bis aufbauliche Kleinmgkeiten fertiggestelit. Die Öfen wurden im Beisein des Heinz Oberingenieur Prüfer der ausführenden Firma, Topf u. Söhne, Erfurt, angefeuert und funktionieren tadellos. Die Eisenbetondecke des Leichenkellers konnte infolge Frostein wirkung noch nicht ausgeschalt werden. Die ist jedoch unbedeutend, do der Vergasungskeller hierfür benützt werden kann.

Die Firma Topf u. Söhne konnte infolge Waggonsperre die Be- und Entlüftungs anlage nicht wie von der Zentralbauleitung gefordert rechtzeitig anliefern. Nach Eintreffen der Be- und Entlüftungsanlage wird jedoch mit dem Einbau sofort begonnen, sodaß voraussichtlich am 20.2.43 die Anlage vollständig betriebsfertig ist (…).“

i.e.

“The crematorium II has been completed -- save for some minor constructional work -- by the use of all forces available, in spite of unspeakable difficulties, the severe cold, and in 24-hour shifts. The fires were started in the ovens in the presence of Oberingenieur Pruefer, representative of the contractors of the firm of Topf and Soehne, Erfurt, and they are working most satisfactorily. The planks from the concrete ceiling of the cellar used as a mortuary [Leichenkeller] could not yet be removed on account of the frost. This is, however, not very important, as the gas chamber [Vergasungskeller] can be used for that purpose.

The firm of Topf and Sohne was not able to start deliveries of the installation in time for aeration and ventilation as had been requested by the Central Building Management because of restrictions in the use of railroad cars. As soon as the installation for aeration and ventilation arrive, the installing will start so that the complete installation may be expected to be ready for use 20 February 1943.(…)”

See for the document http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... ngskeller/
Or, alternatively, D. Czech, Auschwitz Chronicle 1939-1945, New York, 1990, p. 317.

This document is long time known (has been produced also at Nuremberg Trial as doc. NO-4473: see NMT, Vol. 5, p. 619; i have here employed the official translation, also if erroneous, as we see later).
I must note that the document don’t have any stamped “Top Secret” or “Secret”.
The word "Vergasungskeller," is underlined in the original report, stress Prof. John C. Zimmerman in his antirevisionistic essay How Reliable are the Höss Memoirs?, note 29 cfr.http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... -memoirs/-


The reference here was to Krematorium II in Birkenau, as specified in the object of the letter .
Krematorium II (and his twin Krematorium III) had two underground morgues, Leichenkeller 1 (LK 1) and Leichenkeller 2 (LK 2), and a smaller morgue, Leichenkeller 3 (LK3), with its three rooms, as showed by german contemporaneous blue prints of the building. Is clear from these drawings, that LK 1 and LK 2 were simple concrete morgues in which bodies were simply laid on the floor, whereas, according to Auschwitz Museum, in LK1 one homicidal gas (and sometime later, two) chamber(s) was (were) operational(s).

According to Pressac the use in this letter of the word Vergasungskeller involves an "enormous gaff" (p.217), revealing the existence of homicidal "gassing cellar" which - for Pressac - could only have been the LK 1.

The first thing to note is that, in this document, none element indicates that the reference here was to LK 1, so the interpretation of Pressac is absolutely gratuitous.

If Pressac , relying on another document (see below), is correct in saying that the Leichenkeller in question here can’t be LK2, he is wrong to deduce that consequently it can only be LK 1.

The other document is a “test report” – Prüfbericht, dated 29th January 1943 and compiled by the Topf engineer Kurt Prüfer, where is stated clearly that the concrete ceiling, due by frozen, not yet ready is that of the Leichenkeller 2 (cfr Archiwum Panstwowego Muzeum Oswiecim, Archives of the National Museum of Auschwitz, hereafter cited as APMO, BW 30/34, pp.101) .

The Leichenkeller in question can be the LK 3, a room served as storage room for Zyklon-B. Pressac same confirms this thesis. According to the testimony of the Jewish cobbler Henryk Tauber, such as Pressac reads it, Zyklon B cans were stored in one of the rooms of LK 3. For Pressac, the room of which Tauber speaks, would have been the one, on drawings and blue prints, which is labelled Goldarb[eit]. According to him, this room, before it was used for melting down the dental gold (a practice for which Pressac states “the recovery of gold from corpses is current practice [during wartime] even though it may be considered repugnant”, cfr. Pressac p.294) served as a storage room for the Zyklon-B cans (see Pressac pp.483, 485), but, maybe, another room of LK 3 is meant.

The second observation, which reinforce the first, is grammatical. The german word for a gas chamber is Gaskammer, or more simply Kammer when the context is clear, (and maybe also Gasraum: to verify). The word Vergasung designates in german contemporaneous documents a disinfection gassing or a fumigation. (I can’t quote here all references, but see for example the famous NI-9912, p.18 col. D)
So Vergasungskeller, signify in this context probably “cellar (depot) for dealousing gassing material”. None can translate Vergasungskeller as “[homicidal] gas chamber” without dishonesty.

The third fact to be noted, which confirms the erroneous interpretation of Pressac, is logical.
If one makes of Vergasungskeller a room for homicidal gassing, if this local was LK 1, and if according to Pressac’s thesis (“hierfur” “for that purpose”), the Germans contemplated making it into a provisional morgue, where would the victims have been gassed?

Perhaps, another explication, not criminal, also can be advanced.
The Letter is dated 29th January 1943, when the Krematorium II was not yet completed.
We must remember that this building was handed over the camp administration as completed on March 31, 1943 (also if Pressac, without any proof, other than the citation of Auschwitz Kalendarium - see D.Czech cit. p.352 ss. - affirms that Krematorium II was used to gas Jews before it was completed, strating from March 14, 1943; cfr. Pressac p. 227).
The letter de quo was issued during a recrudescence of the typhus epidemic which broke out in Auschwitz in early July 1942.
On February 8, 1943 the Standortälteste of the camp, SS-Obersturmbannführer and Kommandant Rudolf Höss, issued Standortbefehl No. 2/43 which announced the following to all his subordinates:
„Auf Befehl des Amtsgruppenchefs D, SS-Brigadeführer und Generalmajor der Waffen-SS Glücks, ist über das KL Auschwitz erneut eine vollständige Lagersperre verhängt. Der mit SS übermittelte Befehl des Amtsgruppenchefs lautet u.a. wie folgt:
Wegen erhöhten Auftretens von Fleckfieberfällen müssen die bisher genehmigten Lockerungen in der Urlaubserteilung wieder aufgehoben werden.“
i.e.
“By order of SS Brigade Leader and SS General Major Glücks, a total quarantine is issued for KL Auschwitz. The order of the group leader states as follows:
Because of the high incidence of typhus, all permissions for furlough or leaves must be canceled.”
(cfr. APMO, Standort-Befehl, D-Aul-1, P. 46).
At this time, we must remember, the powerful complex called Zentral Sauna for dealousing of prisoners was not yet completed (will be operational only in December 1943 January 1944) and the existing hygienical facilities, as demonstrated by past examples of summer 1942, appears to be absolutely insufficient to combat the typhus and other epidemics that has broken out in the Auschwitz complex.
So the German authorities can have devised to adapt the facilities under construction, as provisional delousing facilities and, of course, also Krematorium II.
In other words, the Vergasungskeller in question, could been adapted, in the mind of Karl Bischoff, as provisional dealousing gas chamber. At least a couple of documents, confirms this hypothesis.
In an "Aufstellung" [in this case a list or itemization] by the Topf company dated 13 April 1943 concerning requested metals to be used in the construction of certain machinery for Krematorium II at Birkenau, the following piece of information appears:

"2 Topf Entwesungsöfen für das Krema II im Kriegsgefangenenlager, Auschwitz."
i.e.
”2 Topf disinfestation heaters for Crematory II in the prisoner of war camp Auschwitz“ (see APMO, BW 30/34, p. 47.)
Also, and more clearly, there is a Rechnung (a bill) from the firm VEDAG Vereinigte Dachpappen-Fabriken Aktiengesellschaft, dated 28 July 1943 with the subject "Auschwitz-Krematorium" referring to "ausgeführte Abdichtungsarbeiten für die Entwesungsanlage" (completed sealing work for the disinfestation facility) which was carried out between 21 May and 16 July (cfr. Tsentr Chranenija Istoriko-dokumental'nich Kollektsii Moscow, 502-1-316, p. 431)..
So in January 1943, at the moment of the redaction of the letter, the Central Construction Office of the SS and Police in Auschwitz could have devised to build in LK 1 of Krematorium II a provisional dealousing gas chamber, which have been completed later. This hypothesis can easily explicate a certain confusion by eyewitnesses about destination of gas chambers in Krematoria
The chronological history of drawings and blueprints of Krematoria show that projects and intentions not always were carried out and I suggest that every thesis must be advanced with the outmost caution.
So the same Pressac, maybe consciously of the his hazardous thesis, concludes that: “To adfirm, SOLELY on the basis of the letter of 29th January 1943 that the term <<Vergassungskeller>> [sic] designated a homicidal gas chamber installed in Leichenkeller1/ corpse cellar 1 of Krematorium II was irresponsible” (cfr. Pressac, p.503) and more later “does not in itself constitute the absolute proof of the existence of a HOMICIDAL gas chamber in the basement of Birkenau Krematorium II” (ibidem, p.505).
Best Regards
LFS
* I start with this document, my analysis of the 39 criminal traces offered by Pressac, so not necessarily in the same order of Pressac. In order to help the forum members, I can suggest to our moderator Mr. David Thompson to post the pages of Pressac opus' with reference to any single matter?

[David Thompson]

Lucius Felix Silla -- Why not discuss Pressac's points in the same order he used in his book? If not, in what order do you propose to discuss them?