Crimes against humanity & war crimes against Germany in

[Panzermahn]

Hi, i found some good sources for war crimes against Germany and her axis allies in WW2..

Any researcher of war crimes in WW2 should take a lookon this

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 7fuen.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 4alli.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 0brom.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 1brun.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 3esbe.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 6fluc.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 5gepl.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 3gros.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 2gust.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 7imgu.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 9imhe.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 3krie.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 9leid.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 8pomm.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 5rett.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 8schi.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 7sowe.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 5sosw.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 7tods.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 0trag.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 1tull.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 0uber.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 1verb.html

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... 9volk.html

May you all not only aware of crimes of Germany but also crimes against Germany[/img]

[Marcus]

I will remain very sceptical any claims presented on sites such as that one (ie sites with an obvious agenda) that aren't be spported by other more reliable sources.

/Marcus

[Panzermahn]

Hi Marcus,

These books gave us rare insight of what happened to German victims....

Very uncommon to get at least some references to crimes against Germany

By the way, your statement implied that you disregard about those sourcesbecause most probably they had an agenda, right?

Then how about books like Destruction of European Jews by Raul Hilberg, memoirs by Elie Weasel and Simon Wiesenthal, with accusations of Germans throwing live Jews into the fire pit, making lampshades from jewish skins, shrunken heads..

what do you think?

[Omega-Force]

..

[Rob - wssob2]

The theme of "Germans as victims" is common in Revisionist apologia - Irving with his Dresden book, Bacque with his books Other Losses and Crimes and Mercies and so on.

[Beppo Schmidt]

Just because Germany started the war and committed massive war crimes does not German victims do not also have the right to be remembered and acknowledged. Everyone has the right to mourn their dead.

[Fredd]

Just because Germany started the war and committed massive war crimes does not German victims do not also have the right to be remembered and acknowledged. Everyone has the right to mourn their dead.

Of course, you are 100% right. All civilian toasted in Dresden from napalm, people murder in Gustlow, and many many more. Even Waffen SS members summarily shot while they had POW status. Its beyond disscusion, we are talking about something different here. Read the thread one more time - besides there are threads about German victims...

[Marcus]

By the way, your statement implied that you disregard about those sourcesbecause most probably they had an agenda, right?

Sites such as that one has an obvious agenda of blaming the Jews and allies for most unpleasant events of WW2 and downplaying the rest, and no, I don't think such sites are reliable.

/Marcus

[Panzermahn]

The theme of "Germans as victims" is common in Revisionist apologia - Irving with his Dresden book, Bacque with his books Other Losses and Crimes and Mercies and so on.

So in fact, Rob, your implying that authors like

Alfred Maurice de Zayas a revisionist apologia for books like Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau 1939-1945, Nemesis at Potsdam, Kriegsverbrechen der XX Jahrhunderts?

John Toland a revisionist apologia for his book Hitler which mentioned that terribly suffering of the German people during the last years of the war?

Antony Beevor a revisionist apologia for his book Berlin: The Downfall 1945 for correctly potraying German women as victims of Russian Mass Rapes?

A.J.P. Taylor a revisionist apologia for his book about World war 2 that mentioned the german people also suffered in WW2?

Cornelius Ryan a revisionist apologia for his book the Last Battle for showing the truth about German women which were gang raped by the invading Russians?

[Sgt D.]

I think it's possible to say that many Germans were victims in WW2 without being a revisionist or a Nazi appologist. Personally, I think anyone who bristles at the suggestion that maybe, just maybe, SOME Germans suffered at the hands of the Allies during WW2 might have read one too many Stephen Ambrose "novels".

War is war and people on all sides suffer. That can't be denied. Human suffering cannot be, and should never be, measured with bodycounts, or justified with moral reasons which attempt to exonerate one side over the other. War itself is a crime against humanity where both sides are always guilty. Either human suffering is tragic or it is not. For both sides. Make up your minds.

I think my Grandfather said it best, when as a young boy, I asked him how we won the war, and he replied that there are no winners in war. Confused, I asked him how that could be, he replied:
"In any war, as soon as one man dies, there cannot ever be a winner."

Amen to that.

Nick

[Panzermahn]

War is war and people on all sides suffer. That can't be denied. Human suffering cannot be, and should never be, measured with bodycounts, or justified with moral reasons which attempt to exonerate one side over the other. War itself is a crime against humanity where both sides are always guilty. Either human suffering is tragic or it is not. For both sides. Make up your minds.

I think my Grandfather said it best, when as a young boy, I asked him how we won the war, and he replied that there are no winners in war. Confused, I asked him how that could be, he replied:
"In any war, as soon as one man dies, there cannot ever be a winner."

Amen to that.

Well said

[Rob - wssob2]

Alfred Maurice de Zayas a revisionist apologia for books like Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau 1939-1945, Nemesis at Potsdam, Kriegsverbrechen der XX Jahrhunderts?

John Toland a revisionist apologia for his book Hitler which mentioned that terribly suffering of the German people during the last years of the war?

Antony Beevor a revisionist apologia for his book Berlin: The Downfall 1945 for correctly potraying German women as victims of Russian Mass Rapes?

A.J.P. Taylor a revisionist apologia for his book about World war 2 that mentioned the german people also suffered in WW2?

Cornelius Ryan a revisionist apologia for his book the Last Battle for showing the truth about German women which were gang raped by the invading Russians?

Panzermahn, of course the Germans suffered. To argue otherwise would be illogical.

However, Revisionism and Nazi apologia overemphasize the German-as-victim theme and underemphasize the German-as-perpetuator theme in an effort to absolve National Socialism of criminal wrongdoing and paint the Allies as the bad guys in WWII.

You mentioned Cornelius Ryan describing crimes, specifically rapes, committed by the Red Army against German civilians. There's little doubt that it happened, and that it was horrible. As individuals with emotions, we can feel shock, anger, and sympathy for the victims. Mistreatment by a soldier on a civilian - whatever their race, nationality, etc. - is a terrible thing in any war in any era.

But if we're studying the events of 1945 Germany to gain a better understanding of history, we need be mindful of cause and effect and the overall big picture. The Red Army's campaign to rape, pillage and plunder eastern Germany was a deliberately cultivated (and then scaled back) campaign of vengeful retribution for Nazi Germany's invasion of the USSR and its barbaric occupation policies. If you're going to talk about the latter, mention the former. Thousands of rapes are a crime. Hundreds of thousands of Soviet PWs starved to death is a greater crime. Truly there are no winners in war and perhaps there are no innocents, at least in the aggregate.

BTW there is a disconnect between the authors you mention and the website you provided. The former write historical works, the latter write propaganda. I think you would do well to heer the Marcus' observation that Wintersonnenwende has an obvious agenda. If you have trouble distinguishing history from propaganda, there are plenty of forum members who can help.

[Panzermahn]

Panzermahn, of course the Germans suffered. To argue otherwise would be illogical.

However, Revisionism and Nazi apologia overemphasize the German-as-victim theme and underemphasize the German-as-perpetuator theme in an effort to absolve National Socialism of criminal wrongdoing and paint the Allies as the bad guys in WWII.

You mentioned Cornelius Ryan describing crimes, specifically rapes, committed by the Red Army against German civilians. There's little doubt that it happened, and that it was horrible. As individuals with emotions, we can feel shock, anger, and sympathy for the victims. Mistreatment by a soldier on a civilian - whatever their race, nationality, etc. - is a terrible thing in any war in any era.

But if we're studying the events of 1945 Germany to gain a better understanding of history, we need be mindful of cause and effect and the overall big picture. The Red Army's campaign to rape, pillage and plunder eastern Germany was a deliberately cultivated (and then scaled back) campaign of vengeful retribution for Nazi Germany's invasion of the USSR and its barbaric occupation policies. If you're going to talk about the latter, mention the former. Thousands of rapes are a crime. Hundreds of thousands of Soviet PWs starved to death is a greater crime. Truly there are no winners in war and perhaps there are no innocents, at least in the aggregate.

BTW there is a disconnect between the authors you mention and the website you provided. The former write historical works, the latter write propaganda. I think you would do well to heer the Marcus' observation that Wintersonnenwende has an obvious agenda. If you have trouble distinguishing history from propaganda, there are plenty of forum members who can help.

Rob-WSSOB, thanks for your answers..I'm not saying that Germany didn't perpetrate crimes against the Russians...The problem is, everything me or other members of this forum trying to find facts of forgotten, overlooked or unknown atrocities against the Germans, other members will emphasized that German crimes are a higher level of degree and start posting about Einsatzgruppen, Holocaust and etc..don't you see the style around here...

Wintersonnenwende, yes...most of it i admit full of racist claptrap...but there are always a shred of truth behind the mountains of false right? For example the photographs of the murdered germans in Bromberg..It was not fake and it was with affidavits and witnesses..

Germans won't lie about what they did and what they did not do. If they committed atrocities, they will admit it by using a grotesque form of logic distortion (Antony Beevor, Stalingrad)

For example, if resistance fighters wore no uniform, it is automatically a death sentence...For example Geneva convention permitted reprisal shooting but after proper trials and procedure and it cannot be disproportionate..But the Germans, using a grotesque form of logic distortion by shooting 10 hostages for 1 soldier killed.

Don't you see that....Many historians argued that the treatment of Russian POWs is not a deliberate move in a sense "i don't like you, so i don' give you anything to eat" kind of way

but actually a grotesque form of logic distortion sort of "since you russians didn't ratified the Geneva Convention, so we won't treat you like POWs"

Yes it is brutal and barbaric but to most of the Germans, it is a form of logic distortion

And how could you compare with the degree of hundreds of thousands Russian death is a higher level of crime than thousands of German women that were raped?

If i'm not mistaken, Rob-WSSOB, you're implying that German women which were raped in their thousands were justified due to the Wehrmacht's behaviour in Russia, right?

[Grellber]

I ended up on the website mentioned above when searcing for info on the events i Prague May 1945. I´ve read through many of the alleged "witness statements". If true, it is a disgrace that my school book in history did not mention theese events.

It makes me wonder about the total number of German victims post WW2.

The sub-site: http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... sgi17.html
contains the following statement: "
"The expulsion revealed the fact that National Socialism was not the issue at all. The program of extermination was aimed at the Germans. It was not Nazis who were being resettled - it was everyone who happened to have been born of a German mother.
The decree of banishment inflicted by the democratic and Communist barbarians struck 2.3 million East Prussians, 0.6 million citizens of Danzig, 3.1 million Lower Silesians, 3.4 million Upper Silesians, 0.9 million from Brandenburg, 1 million Pomeranians, 0.3 million West Prussians, 1 million from Posen and 1 million from the Warthegau - a total of 13.6 million German people. Added to this were 3 million Sudeten Germans, and 1.5 million from Hungary, Yugoslavia and Romania. That makes more than 18 million Germans. More than 2.5 million of them lost their lives in the expulsion."

Some of theese figures sounds familiar. What is your opinions on the stated numbers?

[Michael Kenny]

This is the site that has various publications claiming to 'put the record straight' about concentration camps and still peddling the 135,000 dead at Dresden figures.