Official number of kills in concentration-camps.

F.N. · Post by **F.N.** » 15 Feb 2004 21:54

Just wondering, what is the official number of people killed in concentration-camps to date?

-regards

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » 15 Feb 2004 22:19

Official?

/Marcus

F.N. · Post by **F.N.** » 16 Feb 2004 09:20

Marcus Wendel wrote:Official?

/Marcus

I understand that the number of peoples killed has sunk over the years and that the nazis killed less than 6million jews. So I'm wondering how many do they believe got killed today?

John W · Post by **John W** » 16 Feb 2004 09:29

A few questions:

1. Do you want estimates for entire concentration camp victims or only Jewish victims?
2. What is "Official" (I mean, what would you consider official) ?

F.N. · Post by **F.N.** » 16 Feb 2004 17:24

1. I would like both jewish victims and all of the concentration-camps victims if possible.
2. What I mean by "official" is that there must be a number of victims that most people consider to be the correct one. When I was in Auschwitz the guide said that 6 million jews where murdered in concentration-camps, but I have read elsewhere that it was more like 4 million. So I dont know what to believe.

Mostowka · Post by **Mostowka** » 16 Feb 2004 18:48

There is no "official" count of Jews murdered, concentration camps or elsewhere during the war. Only estimates, so if you are searching for an official number you won´t find one. Holocaust researchers and historians all have their own figures and between 5.0 million and 6.0 is the most common one. As always I recommend the works of "Raul Hillberg"..

Kunikov · Post by **Kunikov** » 16 Feb 2004 19:14

F.N. wrote:1. I would like both jewish victims and all of the concentration-camps victims if possible.
2. What I mean by "official" is that there must be a number of victims that most people consider to be the correct one. When I was in Auschwitz the guide said that 6 million jews where murdered in concentration-camps, but I have read elsewhere that it was more like 4 million. So I dont know what to believe.

6 million Jews alone could not have been killed in concentration camps, 4 sounds more correct. Many were killed in mass graves and mass exterminations in the East, they account for the other 1+ million. I have also heard that the number has gone down to around 5.7 million, but I don't think exact figures will ever be known, considering whole families were executed, who is there to tell about their histories and add their names to Yad Vashem?

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 16 Feb 2004 20:18

1812 · Post by **1812** » 22 Feb 2004 23:05

Strange how the germans kept detailed records on everything else. There should be something to say how many were killed. I doubt anyone will know the exact number.

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 22 Feb 2004 23:33

1812 -- You remarked:

Strange how the germans kept detailed records on everything else.

It's not so strange, when you think about it. Detailed records of criminal acts are only desirable in inverse proportion to the likelihood of them being used against the records-keepers at trial. The allies made numerous announcements during 1942-1945 that they intended to punish Nazi war crimes. As their defeat became more and more likely, the Nazis began to destroy the murder records. Some records were destroyed; others weren't.

michael mills · Post by **michael mills** » 23 Feb 2004 00:57

considering whole families were executed, who is there to tell about their histories and add their names to Yad Vashem?

Almost all Jews in East Europe had relatives in the United States, Britain, South Africa and other places outside Europe, as a result of the massive Jewish emigration in the decades before the First World War.

It was quite common that the members of a Landsmannschaft in the United states from a shtetl somewhere in Poland exceeded the number of Jews left in that shtetl. Indeed, by 1939 there were more Jews of East European origin living outside East Europe than remained there.

Thus, it is extremely unlikely that whole Jewish families in East Europe could disappear without leaving relatives in countries not occupied by Germany, who would be able to report the disappearance of their relatives.

Mostowka · Post by **Mostowka** » 02 Mar 2004 12:59

Michael Mills:

Thus, it is extremely unlikely that whole Jewish families in East Europe could disappear without leaving relatives in countries not occupied by Germany, who would be able to report the disappearance of their relatives.

And how often and how easy was it to remain in contact with relatives in the "old world" - ecspecially in the mess that followed the war and the rise of communism/isolasion ? I know of own experience from older relatives that they simple lost contact and it was EXTREMLY hard to maintain any contact with relatives in the Shtetl;s. So in fact, people had little or no idea of who survived or not during the war.

Kunikov · Post by **Kunikov** » 02 Mar 2004 15:30

michael mills wrote:
considering whole families were executed, who is there to tell about their histories and add their names to Yad Vashem?
Almost all Jews in East Europe had relatives in the United States, Britain, South Africa and other places outside Europe, as a result of the massive Jewish emigration in the decades before the First World War.

It was quite common that the members of a Landsmannschaft in the United states from a shtetl somewhere in Poland exceeded the number of Jews left in that shtetl. Indeed, by 1939 there were more Jews of East European origin living outside East Europe than remained there.

Thus, it is extremely unlikely that whole Jewish families in East Europe could disappear without leaving relatives in countries not occupied by Germany, who would be able to report the disappearance of their relatives.

Do you always make up such nonsense? I lived in Eastern Europe and my family had no one in America or anywhere else in the world. You might be able to speak for parts of Poland, but not Ukraine and other former Soviet Republics. My uncle lost his whole father's side in the Holocaust, he himself does not even know how many people that is but dozens are an easy guess. Aside from that entire villages, by the hundreds if not thousands, were annihilated and razed to the ground, would you like to account for them all and show me exactly where all their relatives went?

Vadim · Post by **Vadim** » 02 Mar 2004 16:55

Kunikov wrote:Do you always make up such nonsense?

No, not always. Sometimes he comes up with much better nonsense...

michael mills · Post by **michael mills** » 03 Mar 2004 03:54

Kunikov wrote:

You might be able to speak for parts of Poland, but not Ukraine and other former Soviet Republics.

Between the 1880s and 1914 a good two million Jews emigrated from the Russian Empire, including Russian Poland. That was at least one third of the total Jewish population.

The great majority went to the United States. Smaller numbers settled in Britain, Canada, Brazil, Argentine and South Africa (mainly Litvaks).

Unless we assume that there were no family ties between those who emigrated and those who remained, an emigration of that size must have had the effect that the great majority of the Jews remaining in the Russian Empire and its successor states had families to Jews living outside Europe.

There was also considerable Jewish emigration from the Habsburg Empire and Romania, although not to the same extent as from the Russian Empire.