Guess who's Bacque?

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
asgatalopt
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Guess who's Bacque?

Post by asgatalopt » 21 Feb 2004 23:00

James Bacque debunked? If he is not a blatant liar, his homepage boasts a nice collection of praises to his book by serious press.

see http://jamesbacque.com/

http://www.londonsocialisthistorians.or ... s/read/437

Also this german source, quoting an officially commited and never made public german postwar inquiry:

http://home.arcor.de/kriegsgefangene/us ... ictis.html

Very useful to read the entire site, http://home.arcor.de/kriegsgefangene/, and especially:

http://home.arcor.de/kriegsgefangene/me ... hilds.html

[Four separate posts by this writer on the research thread "Allied units implicated in war crimes" at:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8&start=15
were consolidated into this single post by the moderator -- DT]

alf
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Post by alf » 22 Feb 2004 10:31

Also this german source, quoting an officially commited and never made public german postwar inquiry:

http://home.arcor.de/kriegsgefangene/us ... ictis.html
An objective report, of the 11 to 12 million German prisoners of war in 20 custody states, is a publication of the "scientific commission for the documentation of the destiny of the German prisoners of the second World War". With up to 16 employees and important scientists, that commission became 400.000 statements of men returned from captivity, 50.000 reports as well and own interviews, published in 22 volumes at more than 10.000 printed pages. After ten years work, when the study had been finished, the (socialist) Westgerman chancellor Herbert Frahm, better known under his pseudonym "Willy Brand", ordered that this report had to be closed and prohibited publishing
What report please, if its quoted it must have a name?

A unnamed report that convientently supports someones political persuasion is too convientent.

So details please, something that is is a link to a primary source document, so we can gain access to read such a report.

Omega-Force
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Post by Omega-Force » 22 Feb 2004 18:09

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Last edited by Omega-Force on 06 Apr 2004 05:39, edited 1 time in total.

asgatalopt
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Post by asgatalopt » 24 Feb 2004 18:09

You fail to see that this is only another aspect of WWII.

Your considerations are pure emotional and politically charged.

History is science, moralism counts nothing.

My father as a child was strafed at lest twice by american fighter planes, and he was in the company of a farm's wagon attached to a longhorn ...

Ah, he remembers also toy bombs, spread in a tilled field by american bombing planes, just like the ones the evil soviets planted in Afghanistan (when the mujaeddin were still glorious fighters, a little bit before they could start tinkering with american planes, see how peoples turn from heroical to heinous).

Not to mention the strafings my widowed grandmother routinely took while going to work.

Columns of italian civilians were routinely strafed by allies, many old people know well.

Not to mention to 40.000 more fascist supporters cold bloodedly killed after the war by communist partisan (would you tell for good?).

Your vision of WWII is quite romanticized.

WWII was simply as cruel as every middle age war, symply there were cameras and most of the population would be much less ignorant than in the past centuries, so serious chronicles exist of it.

BTW, what has this to do with holocaust denial?

asgatalopt
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Post by asgatalopt » 24 Feb 2004 23:24

you show actually a quite fascist (better say communist) side, given that you do not wish to discuss facts and evidence but you try to stop a discussion over a fact that is very umpleasant for the idiotic common wisdom vision of American and English as morally superior liberators.

The Americans in the first part of the century had the good habit of controlling their "negro minority" with much linching and burning alive of niggers (does this adjective sound new to you) by angry hysterical mobs.

Lynching and burning practices are surfacing only today, BTW.


In the U.S. they were sterylizing "inferior peoples " under eugenetics programs that had nothing to envy to the german ones.

The Indians had been previously exterminated in the 19th century to make room to the invading europeans: this sounds pretty much like the realization pf Hotlers lebensraum theory, quite ante litteram.

Before spitting out sentences try to study history.

WWII was a war between two conflicting economic powers (three to be exact, Germany, U.S. and japan).

The soviet Union government was a perfectly criminal one, in 1937 Stalin had already killed in his concentration camps many more people than Hitler did.

Hitler was an hater of the jews (who denies it, and why) Stalin was prosecuting almost everybody who could even remotely contrast him.



And it is not a case if at the beginnig of the war so many russans and ukrainian joined the german army (1,5 millions, does it sound un-romantic to you): the real invader so far had been their very government, a bunch of bloodthirsty criminal like Stalin and yes, Mr. Lenin

Mr.Hitler proved a delusion for the many russians who were expecting a new white army, so they started to fight seriously the germans.

As much as many red army soldiers were just defending their country, much of the german soldiers was just doing the same.

Young fighters who were 20 years old in 1945 didn't even had had time to vote for Hitler in 1933.

If you still grab for some sacred sign of democratic blessing by me, keep in mind that my grandfather stood up the Mussolini regime and was forced to exile for around ten years.

But he refused to join the partisans because they were, in his opinions, much the same as the fascists.

His anti Mussolini only weapon was a strike, a well defiant act for that historical context.

David Thompson
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Post by David Thompson » 25 Feb 2004 00:06

asgatalopt -- Get back on topic -- the accuracy of Bacques' work -- and spare the readers your personal insults and your grotesque and off-topic "historical" anti-American fantasies.

Omega-Force
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Post by Omega-Force » 25 Feb 2004 00:44

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Last edited by Omega-Force on 06 Apr 2004 05:39, edited 1 time in total.

David Thompson
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Post by David Thompson » 25 Feb 2004 01:11

I think this thread could use a 24 hour break -- it's locked until tomorrow.

David Thompson
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Post by David Thompson » 27 Feb 2004 04:52

The allegation that the US dropped booby-trapped toys on Italy in WWII now has a thread of its own, at:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=44157

asgatalopt
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Post by asgatalopt » 27 Feb 2004 20:52

a confutation of james bacque, back to topic.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... vi=reviews

It is by Eisenhover's official biographer, and it focuses mainly on bacque's second book about eisenhover's policies towards german population in general.

His first book was reviewed by the standard italian press with calm tones and no confutations.

I mean the usual press (Il Giornale, as an example), obviously the conservative part of it.

I don't read extremist press (usually: corriere della sera, il giornale: the first is very a mild centrist and most reputed newspaper, the second is a conservative one, still with mild tones and directed to average people).

asgatalopt
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Post by asgatalopt » 27 Feb 2004 21:30

The diary of this german general in american custody seems interesting.

The geneva convention was, according to him, well respected by the western allies until the concentration camps were discoveerd: after that for some period the POWs in U.S. were deprived of most privileges they had and kept undernourished to some extent.

There seesm to have been an investigation by two congressmen which led to a restoration of a geneva convention treatment.

The report is rather long and it must be read entirely.
I think it shows well the complexity of forces, opinion and behaviors that exists makes any historical period a set many facets.

http://home.arcor.de/kriegsgefangene/me ... age_1.html

Sounds to me as the tale from one of the endless war of the middle age or the renaiissance, which were invariably accompanied by sickness and famine.
Last edited by asgatalopt on 27 Feb 2004 21:45, edited 1 time in total.

David Thompson
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Post by David Thompson » 27 Feb 2004 21:44

Readers who follow through to the linked account should be aware that the author was a convicted war criminal and prominent neo-Nazi figure after the war.

Ramcke, Bernhard-Hermann (1889-4.7.1968) [General der Fallschirmtruppe] -- WWI service, commander, Paratroop Assault Regiment (Kdr. Fallsch.Jäg.Sturm-Rgt.) 1941 in invasion of Crete; commander, 2nd Paratroop Division (2.Fallschirmjaeger-Division) 13 Feb-8 Sept 1943 and 1 June-18 Nov 1944 (sic); commander, Fortress Brest (Kommandant, Festung Brest) (France) 1944 [Knights Cross 1941; Oakleaves 1942; Swords 1944; Diamonds 1944] {taken prisoner by American troops 11 Aug 1944; delivered to British authorities; turned over to French authorities Dec 1946; put on trial by a French court; convicted and sentenced to 5 years imprisonment Mar 1951; released for old age 24 Jun 1951 (NYT 25 Jun 1951:3:7); attacked allies as war criminals at SS reunion 26 Oct 1952 (LT 27 Oct 1952:6f; LT 29 Oct 1952:6g); died at Kappeln/Schlei 4 Jul 1968 (ABR-L; Third Reich Factbook).}

Readers who would like to know more about US treatment of POWs in WWII may find this thread of interest:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=40027

asgatalopt
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Post by asgatalopt » 28 Feb 2004 09:16

A 1997 writing by Bacque

http://www.serendipity.li/hr/bacque01.htm

and Stephen Ambrose critique of his work

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/b/bac ... e-001.html

asgatalopt
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Post by asgatalopt » 28 Feb 2004 09:30

For german history studies in general, look at this Michigan University site:

http://www.h-net.org/~german/

As for the Bacque question, this site has a small section:

http://www.h-net.org/~german/discuss/veday/

Some interventions by Bacque himself, some contrarians to him, a serious university environment this time.

I hope michigan University won't be taken for an extremist istitution.

asgatalopt
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Post by asgatalopt » 28 Feb 2004 09:40

And this message on this site suumons up all what I personally think

http://www.h-net.org/~german/discuss/veday/wagner3.txt

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