About the participation of the Estonian SS in war crimes

Reigo · Post by **Reigo** » 23 Feb 2004 20:38

http://www.ln.mid.ru/brp_4.nsf/9f9f2a64 ... enDocument

Those who can read Russian can enjoy Russian Foreign Ministry's propaganda piece called: "About the participation of the Estonian SS-Legion in war crmes 1941-1945 and the attempt to revise the Nürnberg court decidings in Estonia" (there is an article also about Latvia, but I didn't bother to read it through)

For example some quotes.

"From the beginning of 3o-ies of the XXth century in Estonia started quickly develop the fashist movement of the vaps' ... The vaps movement wanted to eliminate all the political, economical and cultural rights of the national minorities and they were orientated to Nazi Germany."

This shows that the "specialists", who have written the text, have actually no idea about the Vaps movement (Vetereans of the War of Independence). Practically everything which is said in the quote is lie. The vaps actually tried also to win the support of the local Russians for example. They didn't agitate for eliminating the Jewish Cultural autonomy for example. They weren't orientated to Nazi Germany, it was pretty much local invention, mild fashism.

It is claimed that 2 000 (not 1 000) Jews were murdered by the Estonians.

"Some days before the liberation of Tallinn ... about thousand inmates of the Central Prison were shot." It is "forgotten" to give the source.

The old Soviet propaganda about the killed 61 000 civilians and 64 000 Soviet POWs in Estonia is repeated. The Source is "Encyclopedia of the Great Patriotic War" Moscow, 1985. Note that the authors of the article have used also the research results of the Estonian historians, which BTW disprove such numbers. But the Russians have only used the data of Estonian historians, which fits their fantasies and they don't use this, which doesn't fit the concept.

The anti-partisan fight is presented completely as a war crime. Note that this is actually the only war-crimes material against the Estonian SS-Legion itself. (The Estonian partisans against the Soviets are of course evil nazi murderers who fight against the forces of goodness).

And at the end of the article is the cry that the Estonian nationalists are "trying to put to one level the entering of Estonia into the Soviet Union and the occupation of this country by the Fashist Germany, are trying to accuse Soviet Union in aggression, genocide, crimes against the humanity and in war crimes."

Of course the article contains also much true information, but nothing really new. So an example of typical Soviet publication: the main thing is the concept, facts are chosen according to the concept. Also a little bit of fantasies are added and there you go.

Reigo · Post by **Reigo** » 24 Feb 2004 17:13

One more "pearl" from the Russian propaganda-piece:

"Punishment actions also were done by the special battalion "Ostland"

which was formed in October 1941. (Source RGVA f. 451p. Op.5. D.149. L.

144-145). According to the data of researcher R. Michaelis, who is

quoting the document of the SS Hauptamt (document Nr 8699/42), this

unit was in 1941-1942 on the territory of the Ukrainian SSR and

participated in the shooting of Jews. In a raport from 11th May 1942

there is information about the shooting of 1 000 Jews in Minsk, raport

from 15th July 1942 talks about the shooting of another 1 000 Jews

there, raport from 27th June contains information about the liquidation

of 4 000 Jews at Slonim, raport from 28th July 1942 about the killing

of 6 000 Jews in Minsk. (Source: Michaelis, R. Eestlase Waffen-SS-is 20

(1 EEsti)-SS relvagrenaderidiviis. Tallinn: Olion, 2001. P 32)"

I have Michaelis book and page 32 doesn't talk a word about such

battalion. But on page 26 it is said: "On 21st January 1943 2

officers, 24 junior officers and 62 soldiers arrived to Debica from

Waffen-SS special purpose battalion's 1st Company - they were German

instructors and staff personal (for the Estonian Legion - Reigo)."

Michaelis gives source: SS Hauptamt's diary nr 8699/42 completely

secret entering from 21st January 1943. Michaelis writes: "Before this

the company had located on the area of the "Ostland" state comissariat

and participated in many shootings of Jews. For example the company

reported on 11th May 1942 about the shooting of 1 000 Jews in Minsk, on

15th June (not July - Reigo) reported that another 1 000 Jews were executed there, on 27th

June reported about the killing of 4 000 Jews at Slonim, on 28th July

1942 reported about the killing of 6 000 Jews in Minsk."

And the Russian article isn't written by some ordinary idiot, but it is official Russian government's text.

The Waffen-SS battalion "Ostland" (from the beginning of 1942 the 304th Police Battalion) was actually formed on 6th July 1941 in the German Police training camps near Berlin and Frankfurt. The men were Estonians (about 350) and Latvians who had emigrated with the Baltic Germans to Germany in 1939-41. It acted in Ukraine in the area of Zhitomir, Lvov, Kiev against the partisans and had securtity duties. In autumn 1942 some of the Estonians were sent to Debica. The Estonians were completely removed from the unit by September 1943. Of course the unit may have participated in war crimes, but the Russian information is pure lie.

Toivo · Post by **Toivo** » 25 Feb 2004 08:11

If russian officials have goals to create serious tensions their propaganda might even work indeed considering such dimplomatic attacks based on lies are daily.

Some russian said very nicely - considering what Russia has done to the Baltic states, it should keep her mouth shut.

Harri · Post by **Harri** » 25 Feb 2004 19:49

It is strange that even "official" information given is so far away from the truth, fabricated or even false. Maybe the old traditions are just too strong...

----

I'm afraid this policy means too that our stolen town Viipuri will remain "an old Russian town"?

Benoit Douville · Post by **Benoit Douville** » 26 Feb 2004 02:49

I remember that I have read that the SS Estonian police were partcipating in killing Jews even before the Germans started. It was from a Soviet Author... Can somebody confirm or deny this.

Regards

Toivo · Post by **Toivo** » 26 Feb 2004 08:52

Well think about this yourself - what this soviet author is stating has no logic. From what I understand, he means estonians serving under german SS as police killed jews before germns themselves? This would make not much sense considering first estonians who fought along with germans at all were joining police or army not before July 1941.
Jews were targeted since the beginning from Op Barbarossa, that's what I have understood from agreed official history, or am I wrong? So, this statement would make no sense.
I for one wouldn't trust any statement coming from soviet period without gathering more facts, documents. In one book estonians were accused for being part of 300th "special" SS division too heh!

Regards

Rob - wssob2 · Post by **Rob - wssob2** » 26 Feb 2004 14:55

I'm afraid this policy means too that our stolen town Viipuri will remain "an old Russian town"?

I suppose that's better that having all of Finland be "an old Russian province..."

Toivo · Post by **Toivo** » 26 Feb 2004 15:35

Haha, nations of whole world could argue about what areas belong to them, why and since when!

What amazes me is that even some politicans still bring this issue up, not only us here. Some chauvinist russian politic still thinks two of our cities should be their - one because russians managed to capture this nearly thousand years ago for brief period and another because they destroyed it during WW2 and later didn't let citizens go back there, so mostly russians live there now.

Best argument to bring up is ofcourse some issue from WW2 period since russians won war (you don't judge winners!) and since western countries had same enemy (Third Reich), they wouldn't say a thing.
And that's the case.

Rob - wssob2 · Post by **Rob - wssob2** » 26 Feb 2004 16:53

I remember that I have read that the SS Estonian police were
partcipating in killing Jews even before the Germans started.
It was from a Soviet Author... Can somebody confirm or denied this.

Can you give a date for the razzia and a source? Hard to confirm
or deny something when you don't have much information to go on.

he means estonians serving under german SS
as police killed jews before germns themselves?

The author could be referring to the fact that the SS Einsatzgruppen
advancing through the Baltics in June 1941 deliberately incited pogroms
which were carried out by locals. The Estonian Omakaitse
(sort of a home guard self-defense paramilitary formation) apparently participated
in the execution of Estonian Jew in January 1942 - the German soon after pronounced Estonia "Jew Free".

Regarding the Holocaust in WWII Estonia, Estonian President Lennart Meri convened an
International Commission for the Investigation of Crimes Against Humanity.
The committee issued a report in 2001:

http://www.historycommission.ee/temp/

The conclusions are interesting, and are posted on

http://www.historycommission.ee/temp/conclusions.htm

Please note this is an Estonian commission, not a Bolshevik or Russian propagandist:

Research has also disclosed evidence of crimes
against humanity, and acts of genocide, in which
the 286th, 287th and 288th Police Battalions participated
at various times in their existence. These include the
killing of prisoners at camps in Estonia, and
participation in what are described as "raids" on
villages in Poland, Belarus, and Lithuania. The 287th
was on duty at the Klooga camp in September 1944, when t
he last surviving prisoners were killed. It is not
clear whether the actual killings were carried out by
German SS guards, by members of a reserve unit of the
Estonian SS, or by members of the 287th. It is however
clear that the 287th was actively involved in gathering
together the prisoners, guarding them, and escorting them to
their death. The unit was withdrawn to Germany and most of its
men were sent to the 20th Estonian SS Division.

Note: the Klooga prisoners were killed in Sept. 1944 and the
287th was incorporated into the 20th SS division the following month.

In addition, the Commission names SS. Brig Johannes Soodla, the Inspector General of the Estonian Waffen-SS,
and first commander of the Estonian 1st SS Volunteer Regiment, as one of 8 Estonians who specifically
"share responsibility with the German authorities, by virtue of their
office, for all criminal actions carried out in Estonia, and beyond its borders
by military units or police battalions raised with their consent, during the period of the German occupation"

Additional information on Soodla is available at:

http://www.geocities.com/~orion47/ESTON ... en-SS.html

Toivo · Post by **Toivo** » 26 Feb 2004 17:46

Yes, author could refer to such fact but as long as we don't know name and source of this soviet author, we can only guess.

This report does show some estonian units _participating_ in warcrimes, and when have any of us estonians here in forum denied fact that some estonians were quilty? But this does not show 100% who, how and when commited warcrimes and to what level.

Original topic is about poor facts and open lies however. Why bring up obvious facts in official reports instead commenting on those hazy documents Reigo pointed out?...

Harri · Post by **Harri** » 26 Feb 2004 21:32

Rob - WSSOB wrote:
Harri wrote:I'm afraid this policy means too that our stolen town Viipuri will remain "an old Russian town"?
I suppose that's better that having all of Finland be "an old Russian province..."

(I really would like to see that...)

No offence but I think you didn't quite understood what I meant, Rob. I think it is very dangerous if that kind of clear lies are spread and some still state and believe in that Viborg/Vyborg/Viipuri really is an old Russian town. In USSR/Russia their history was at least partly fabricated and in Soviet atmosphere it was easy to create new "historical facts" which became the official truth. And as Reigo proved "the good old style" has not gone anywhere.

Facts:
1. Finland has never been Russian province.
2. Viipuri was not founded by Russians but Swedes.
3. Soviets/Russians have been major population of Viipuri since 1940/1944.
4. Finns had always lived there (until 1940/1944)
5. Viipuri was ceded to USSR once in March 1940 and on 20.6.1944 Soviets managed to conquer it when Finnish 20th Brigade tossed in the defence of the town. Finnish population moved "voluntarily" away (voluntary ethnical cleansing)

Yes, I know, off topic again, but this "old Russian town" stuff belongs to the same category as other "official BST" told by Reigo so I couldn't help myself.

Rob - wssob2 · Post by **Rob - wssob2** » 26 Feb 2004 21:53

Hi Harri - thanks for your post. I mean no offense to you, Finns or Finland in general.

1. Finland has never been Russian province.

Quick question that perhaps you can clear up for me: My understanding is that Russia beat Sweden in the "Finnish War" in circa 1809-1812 at which point the the Russians won the territory of Finland from Sweden and set it up as an "automous grand dutchy" under the Russian czar. My understanding was that Finland was essentially a province of Russia, although with a fair degree of independence with regards to language, religion and some self-government. My understanding is that Mannerheim was a competent and loyal officer of the Czar and later leader of the Finnish White forces. If Finland has never been a Russian province, why did it need to declare itself "independent" in Dec 1917 and why did the Bolshevik gov't in Moscow recognize it's declaration?

- Rob

PS - Ever heard of Tove Janson? One of the best children's book writers of all time. Moomins rock!

Askold · Post by **Askold** » 26 Feb 2004 22:18

Typical Russo-Soviet propaganda piece. As for mistakes in official dokument its no surprise - even now, all russian historical journals, books and publications all base their findings on old Soviet stereotypes. I find this discussting.

P.S.
I believe this came as responce to Latvia's trial of Soviet partizan (Kononov?) who commited war crimes against the Latvians.

Harri · Post by **Harri** » 26 Feb 2004 23:19

Rob - WSSOB wrote:Hi Harri - thanks for your post. I mean no offense to you, Finns or Finland in general.

I noticed that but my "side note" was basically directed to Estonians (I think they know better this "Viipuri case").

Rob - WSSOB wrote:
Harri wrote:1. Finland has never been Russian province.
My understanding is that Russia beat Sweden in the "Finnish War" in circa 1809-1812 at which point the the Russians won the territory of Finland from Sweden and set it up as an "automous grand dutchy" under the Russian czar. My understanding was that Finland was essentially a province of Russia, although with a fair degree of independence with regards to language, religion and some self-government. My understanding is that Mannerheim was a competent and loyal officer of the Czar and later leader of the Finnish White forces. If Finland has never been a Russian province, why did it need to declare itself "independent" in Dec 1917 and why did the Bolshevik gov't in Moscow recognize it's declaration?

Basically correct. While we anyway were part of Russian empire (but not a Russian province) we had to declare our independence and get the permission first from St. Petersburg (not from Moscow I think?).

Finland was autonomous part of Russia which meant we had only the common sovereign (Czar), defence (Army) and foreign policy but for example we had our own laws and regime, own money and even own military units. The representative of Russian Czar in Finland was General-Governor who was the Commander-in-Chief of Russian and Finnish armed forces in Finland. Officially Finland was never Russian province ruled legally by Russians and that is the big difference. Finland became grand duchy already during the Swedish era.

During the Russification period which started late in the 19th Century Finland was tried to bind to Russia more tightly and our own special rights were decreased significantly. Our own armed units were suspended but most Finns refused to serve in Russian army so only volunteer Finns like Mannerheim fought in Russian Army during WW I.

Rob - WSSOB wrote:PS - Ever heard of Tove Janson? One of the best children's book writers of all time. Moomins rock!

Yes of course. (At least) children love them.

Vadim · Post by **Vadim** » 26 Feb 2004 23:40

Rob - WSSOB wrote:My understanding is that Russia beat Sweden in the "Finnish War" in circa 1809-1812 at which point the the Russians won the territory of Finland from Sweden and set it up as an "automous grand dutchy" under the Russian czar. My understanding was that Finland was essentially a province of Russia, although with a fair degree of independence with regards to language, religion and some self-government. ...If Finland has never been a Russian province, why did it need to declare itself "independent" in Dec 1917 and why did the Bolshevik gov't in Moscow recognize it's declaration

Rob is quite right. A brief history discourse. Alexander I attacked Finland in 1808 after reaching an agreement with Napoleon. In 1809, Finnish noble families pledged loyalty to Alexander I and the same year Finland was granted a status of an autonomous Grand Duchy. In 1812, Russians moved the capital from Turku to Helsinki. Most historical sources (including Finnish ones, mind you) state that between 1809 and 1899 "Finland prospers under the extensive autonomy and more liberal conditions than in the rest of Russian Empire. National identity and nationalism awakens" (examples cited are usually the first printing of the national epic Kalevala, first railway, Finnish becoming an official language). The troubles started in 1899, when Russia attempted to implement a strong russification policy (that was shortly after Nicholas II, who could not keep rabid Russian Pan-Slavists in check, came to power). Finally, in December 1917, Finns used the chaos in Russia as an opportunity to declare independence.

By the way, prior to all this, Russia occupied Finland twice more, in 1714-1721 (Great Northern War) and 1741-43.

PS just noticed that Harri already responded while I was typing my post...