Robbery of German patents by Western Allies in WW2

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Panzermahn
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Robbery of German patents by Western Allies in WW2

Post by Panzermahn » 25 Feb 2004 09:19

Hi,

When i was doing my research on magnetic recording, i came across this information by an IEEE historian, Dr David Morton
1945 - American and British technical investigators "discover" the Magnetophon in Luxembourg, France, and other places formerly occupied by the Germans. By Spring, these investigators begin gathering information about the production of tape recorders and tape, and the U.S. Department of Commerce publishes the information.

The U.S. Alien Property Custodian seizes German patent rights on the technology

source:
http://www.bassboy.com.au/getreel/articles/history.htm

wow, isn't this a forgotten crime by the Allies?

The defenders of freedom and democracy rob and steal technology patents from the Fascist-Nazi-German beast like common street-robbers?

I didn't knew about this and i would certainly like to find out more about this and perhaps some chapters can be written about this in my book

David Thompson
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Post by David Thompson » 25 Feb 2004 10:06

Panzermahn -- You asked:
wow, isn't this a forgotten crime by the Allies?
What makes you think it's a crime? What international law or treaty does it violate? Are you sure that this wasn't something every belligerent did, in WWI and WWII and maybe even earlier than that?

You also said:
I didn't knew about this and i would certainly like to find out more about this and perhaps some chapters can be written about this in my book
On 9 Dec 1941 the US Attorney General established the Alien Property Division (APD) of the US Department of Justice to handle certain enemy property responsibilities that resulted from the entry of the United States into the war. An Executive order of 11 Mar 1942 established the WW II Office of Alien Property Custodian (APC) within the Office for Emergency Management (OEM). An Executive order of 21 Apr 1942 transferred the functions, personnel, and property of the APD to the Alien Property Custodian.

An Executive order of 6 Jul 1942 gave the US Secretary of the Treasury authority over foreign-owned properties that constituted general purchasing power and required no active management, such as cash, bullion, bank deposits, and securities. The same order empowered the Alien Property Custodian to take over types of foreign-owned property that were productive resources requiring active management, such as business enterprises, patents, copyrights, trademarks, and ships. An Executive order of 18 Jun 1945, extended the Alien Property Custodian’s jurisdiction over all property of whatever nature in the United States owned by Germany or Japan or nationals of those countries, subject to some limitations.

An Executive order of 14 Oct 1946, terminated the Office of Alien Property Custodian and transferred its functions, funds, personnel, records, and property (except those connected with property in the Philippine Islands) to the US Department of Justice, Office of Alien Property.

Leo T. Crowley was Alien Property Custodian from 1942 to 1944; James E. Markham held the position from 1944 to 1946.

The US also had an Alien Property Custodian in WWI.

You can find the Records of the Office of Alien Property in Record Group 131 (RG 131) of the US National Archives and Records Administration, as part of the US Department of Justice Records.

You might also want to take a look at The Alien Property Custodian: A Legislative Chronological History and Bibliography of the Trading with the Enemy Act, 50 U.S. Code App. 1-40, and the Operations of the Office of Alien Property Custodian, 1917-1952. U.S. Senate, Committee on the Judiciary (82d Congress, 2d Session).

JariL
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Post by JariL » 26 Feb 2004 10:04

What David is referring to is a normal war time procedure to handle property of hostile nations within a countries own borders. Panzermahn on the other hand is talking about the confiscation of the patents after the war. The latter was not a war crime or a crime because Germany surrendered unconditionally. The victors had every right to confiscate the patents as hard as that may sound. You could call them part of the compensation Germany was forced to pay. War is never a fair business and Germans did not behave any differently when they occupied for example Czechoslovakia. Companies and their patentets were soon transferred into German hands.

I have never read anything about how many patents German companies managed to protect for example by using Swiss or other neutral companies as a front. Probably not too many.

It is noteworthy that the US government frindged property rights of companies located in neutral countries during the war. One of the best know cases was the 40 mm Bofors AA-gun. US army and navy aqcuired a license to produce Bofors guns to be used by US armed forces in 1940. During the war americans started delivering guns to all of her allies and thus violated the license agreement. Bofors complained about this and received a very clearly worded answer from the US foreign office that in diplomatic language said "f... off". The US "competition" was very damaging for Bofors not only because of the price (0) but because US industry managed to make the manufacturing process simpler by dropping the number of parts needed for one gun from about 2.700 to around 1.800.

After the war had ended Bofors sued the US government and won. A separate license fee was paid for each gun that the US government had delivered to other than US armed forces.

Regards,

Jari

Panzermahn
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Post by Panzermahn » 26 Feb 2004 15:48

What makes you think it's a crime? What international law or treaty does it violate? Are you sure that this wasn't something every belligerent did, in WWI and WWII and maybe even earlier than that
David, retrospectively, actions such as this doesn't violate any international treaty existing at that time but wouldn't it be intellectual/ethical/moral crime that the Western Allies committed?

Is it permissible to allow opponents to utilise illegal and criminal methods comparable to what their enemies used in order to proclaim that it was for the freedom and democracy while simulataneously denounced it if the exact methods used against them?

Simply, in WW2 the Axis are the bad guys, right? and the Allies is the good guys right? so if the allies are fighting for freedom and democracy of the human civillization, why use the methods of the bad guys themselves?

Don't you think that using the bad guys methods in order to defeat the bad guys while ultimately reduced yourselves to the level of the bad guys themselves?

Just like the famous pliagarism case of the infamous Russian author (sorry i forgot his name) who was a Nobel prize winner for his work, The Quiet Flows the Don..

Is it a crime violating international treaty? No
But is it an intellectual crime? Yes

JariL
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Post by JariL » 26 Feb 2004 16:13

<But is it an intellectual crime? Yes

Hi,

Not necessarily. State of war means that normal relations cease to exist between two nations. This includes all trade agreements, patents etc. So starting a war puts everything in jeopardy and individual companies are not protected by peace time agreements. Usually a peace agreement restores relations between the nations and pre war agreements may be enforced again -or then not. They simply have to be agreed upon again. Germany has done this through many agreements after WWII which among other things have protected the patents of German companies. If among the patents approved after the war were inventions that the allied had confiscated after the war, their original patent protection was restored. If the patent was not approved by the patent authorities or it had been registered to some othe rcompany, the patent was lost.

If rights of non belligerents are violated, that constitutes a crime and as was seen in the example above, US court was of the same opinion in the Bofors case.

Regards,

Jari

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Vadim
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Post by Vadim » 26 Feb 2004 16:44

panzermahn wrote:Simply, in WW2 the Axis are the bad guys, right? and the Allies is the good guys right?..
By George, I think Panzermahn finally got it!!! :lol:
panzermahn wrote:Don't you think that using the bad guys methods in order to defeat the bad guys while ultimately reduced yourselves to the level of the bad guys themselves?

Just like the famous pliagarism case of the infamous Russian author (sorry i forgot his name) who was a Nobel prize winner for his work, The Quiet Flows the Don..
The famous case of the infamous author? Panzerdude, you sure have a way with words. For one, I have no idea how this relates to Panzer's orignal post. Besides, when a noted researcher like Panzer references something, he should do a little better than "Russian author (sorry i forgot his name)". For anyone interested, what Panzerguy is talking about is the case of Mikhail Sholokhov who received a 1965 Nobel prize in Literature for his book "Quiet Flows the Don" (the book was about Don Cossacks). He was accused of plagiarism continuosly since the first chapter of the book was published in 1929, however none of the accusers ever produced any credible evidence. Thus, for example, it was stated that a White Cossack writer, Kruykov, was the author but Kryukov's son never supported this claim nor did any emigrant Cossack publications.
http://www.vor.ru/Events/program16.html
http://harikumar.brinkster.net/MLRB/STA ... _BLAND.htm

Panzermahn
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Post by Panzermahn » 28 Feb 2004 08:31

He was accused of plagiarism continuosly since the first chapter of the book was published in 1929, however none of the accusers ever produced any credible evidence
Solzhenitsyn brought an analysis (from an anonymous author) on Solokhov's writtings when he was exiled from Russia

Its proven that the Mikhail Sholokhov pliagrised from an earlier work because for the 1st volume, it only took him 2 year to write but for his 2nd volume he took more than 5 years..(read it somewhere from a book)

but let's get back to the thread..i'm just giving an analogy

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Vadim
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Post by Vadim » 28 Feb 2004 15:29

panzermahn wrote:Solzhenitsyn brought an analysis (from an anonymous author) on Solokhov's writtings when he was exiled from Russia
Solzhenitsyn's accusation was one of many and has never been proven to hold water any more than any other ones. Solzhenitsyn had his own agenda and his own axe to grind with Soviet literature so he can hardly be considered impartial.
panzermahn wrote:Its proven that the Mikhail Sholokhov pliagrised from an earlier work because for the 1st volume, it only took him 2 year to write but for his 2nd volume he took more than 5 years..(read it somewhere from a book)
Proven by who? Where? "Read it somewhere from a book" is not a source. The fact that it might have taken him longer to write the second volume does not in any way imply plagiarism. BTW, it took him about 15 years to complete the two volumes.
panzermahn wrote:but let's get back to the thread..i'm just giving an analogy
You are giving a faulty analogy. Please explain what this has to do with "using the bad guys methods in order to defeat the bad guys while ultimately reduced yourselves to the level of the bad guys themselves?".

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Re: Robbery of German patents by Western Allies in WW2

Post by robert knott » 28 Feb 2004 16:51

panzermahn wrote:Hi,

When i was doing my research on magnetic recording, i came across this information


wow, isn't this a forgotten crime by the Allies?
Who but Panzermahn could have uncovered a "war crime" in such an unlikely spot?

jpatterson
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Post by jpatterson » 29 Feb 2004 18:03

To the victor go the spoils?

Later

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Abbeyville Kid
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Post by Abbeyville Kid » 29 Feb 2004 23:37

I suppose it figures in the same catagory of liberating Werner Von Braun,otherwise NASA probably wouldnt exist!

Caldric
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Re: Robbery of German patents by Western Allies in WW2

Post by Caldric » 29 Feb 2004 23:43

panzermahn wrote:Hi,

When i was doing my research on magnetic recording, i came across this information by an IEEE historian, Dr David Morton
1945 - American and British technical investigators "discover" the Magnetophon in Luxembourg, France, and other places formerly occupied by the Germans. By Spring, these investigators begin gathering information about the production of tape recorders and tape, and the U.S. Department of Commerce publishes the information.

The U.S. Alien Property Custodian seizes German patent rights on the technology

source:
http://www.bassboy.com.au/getreel/articles/history.htm

wow, isn't this a forgotten crime by the Allies?

The defenders of freedom and democracy rob and steal technology patents from the Fascist-Nazi-German beast like common street-robbers?

I didn't knew about this and i would certainly like to find out more about this and perhaps some chapters can be written about this in my book
Well I think before you finish your book you need a MAJOR dose of international law and the laws of warfare in the last half of the 19th and first half of the 20th century.

Crime is a word you use losely and without regard to its meaning.


Hey and defending freedom from Facist criminals and bloody murderers is expensive undertaking. Perhaps you should brush up on wartime economics while you’re at it.

Caldric
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Post by Caldric » 29 Feb 2004 23:46

Abbeyville Kid wrote:I suppose it figures in the same catagory of liberating Werner Von Braun,otherwise NASA probably wouldnt exist!
There were noted rocket scientist in the US also. Of course Braun pushed us far ahead but NASA would exist with or without him.

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Abbeyville Kid
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Post by Abbeyville Kid » 29 Feb 2004 23:49

Sorry,
I did not want to offend anyone.

Caldric
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Post by Caldric » 29 Feb 2004 23:51

Abbeyville Kid wrote:Sorry,
I did not want to offend anyone.
No offense taken at all, I just disagreed a little. :D

I understood exactly what you were stating though.

Welcome by the way.

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