Hungarian Lynching of Allied Airmen, 1944-45

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Penn44
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Hungarian Lynching of Allied Airmen, 1944-45

Post by Penn44 » 25 Feb 2004 22:22

Does anyone have any information or sources on the lynching of Allied airmen in Hungary by Hungarian civilians in 1944-45?

One case that I am particularly interested in is the reported hanging of four British in Budapest in the summer 1944.


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Post by David Thompson » 25 Feb 2004 23:02

Bakos, Miklos [Hungarian Captain] -- Hungarian SS officer {arrested and put on trial 22 May 1946 by an American military tribunal at Salzburg for the murders of 5 captured American fliers on 7 May 1945 ("Trials by U.S. Army Courts in Europe 1945-1948," http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/JuNSVEng/D ... start.htm; Case No. 5-100 [US vs. Karolyi Ney et al]); convicted and sentenced to death by hanging 8 Jun 1946 (NYT 9 Jun 1946:34:1); subsequent fate unknown.}

Csihas, Istvan [Hungarian Lieutenant] -- Hungarian SS officer {arrested and put on trial 22 May 1946 by an American military tribunal at Salzburg for the murders of 5 captured American fliers on 7 May 1945 ("Trials by U.S. Army Courts in Europe 1945-1948," http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/JuNSVEng/D ... start.htm; Case No. 5-100 [US vs. Karolyi Ney et al]); convicted and sentenced to death by hanging 8 Jun 1946 (NYT 9 Jun 1946:34:1); subsequent fate unknown.}

David, Andras -- Hungarian torturer {arrested and put on trial by a Hungarian court at Budapest on charges of having tortured a downed American pilot in Jul 1944; convicted and sentenced to 2 1/2 years imprisonment 23 Feb 1949 (NYT 24 Feb 1949:13:3).}

Eros, Istvan -- Hungarian SS enlisted man {put on trial 22 May 1946 by an American military tribunal at Salzburg for the murders of 5 captured American fliers on 7 May 1945 ("Trials by U.S. Army Courts in Europe 1945-1948," http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/JuNSVEng/D ... start.htm; Case No. 5-100 [US vs. Karolyi Ney et al]); convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment 8 Jun 1946 (NYT 9 Jun 1946:34:1).}

Karolyi, Ferenc [Hungarian Major] -- Hungarian SS officer {put on trial 22 May 1946 by an American military tribunal at Salzburg for the murders of 5 captured American fliers on 7 May 1945 ("Trials by U.S. Army Courts in Europe 1945-1948," http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/JuNSVEng/D ... start.htm; Case No. 5-100 [US vs. Karolyi Ney et al]); convicted and sentenced to death by hanging 8 Jun 1946 (NYT 9 Jun 1946:34:1); subsequent fate unknown.}

Lengyel, Istvan -- Hungarian SS enlisted man {put on trial 22 May 1946 by an American military tribunal at Salzburg for the murders of 5 captured American fliers on 7 May 1945 ("Trials by U.S. Army Courts in Europe 1945-1948," http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/JuNSVEng/D ... start.htm; Case No. 5-100 [US vs. Karolyi Ney et al]); convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment 8 Jun 1946 (NYT 9 Jun 1946:34:1).}

Ney, Karolyi [Hungarian Lieutenant Colonel] -- Hungarian SS officer {arrested and put on trial 22 May 1946 by an American military tribunal at Salzburg for the murders of 5 captured American fliers on 7 May 1945 ("Trials by U.S. Army Courts in Europe 1945-1948," http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/JuNSVEng/D ... start.htm; Case No. 5-100 [US vs. Karolyi Ney et al]); convicted and sentenced to death by hanging 8 Jun 1946 (NYT 9 Jun 1946:34:1); subsequent fate unknown.}

Pinter, Georg -- Hungarian jail warden, Budapest {arrested and put on trial by the Hungarian People's Court at Budapest for beating and torturing downed allied fliers; convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment 27 Sept 1945 (NYT 28 Sept 1945:8:5).}

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Re: Hungarian Lynching of Allied Airmen, 1944-45

Post by xcalibur » 26 Feb 2004 05:18

Penn44 wrote:Does anyone have any information or sources on the lynching of Allied airmen in Hungary by Hungarian civilians in 1944-45?

One case that I am particularly interested in is the reported hanging of four British in Budapest in the summer 1944.


Penn44


You're not writing a book too, are you? :P


Sorry, couldn't help myself.....

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Post by David Thompson » 26 Feb 2004 05:39

Penn44 -- You asked:
You're not writing a book too, are you?

Sorry, couldn't help myself.....
Not on Hungarians who lynched allied airmen -- it's just part of a larger research work that I've been fooling around with for the last fifteen years, on folks accused of war crimes and collaboration in WWII Europe.

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Re: Hungarian Lynching of Allied Airmen, 1944-45

Post by Penn44 » 26 Feb 2004 08:54

xcalibur wrote:
Penn44 wrote:Does anyone have any information or sources on the lynching of Allied airmen in Hungary by Hungarian civilians in 1944-45?

One case that I am particularly interested in is the reported hanging of four British in Budapest in the summer 1944.


Penn44


You're not writing a book too, are you? :P


Sorry, couldn't help myself.....



xcalibur wrote:You're not writing a book too, are you? :P


Sorry, couldn't help myself.....



I am ashamed to admit, I am. I am working working on two books (which means that I never complete either). The first is on a survey of the German, Hungarian, and Italian militaries treatment of POWs of Jewish, African, and Asian ancestry in WWII. The second book is on one specific war crimes incident.

The Hungarians reportedly hanged four captured, non-white British/British Commonwealth airmen in Budapest over the summer of 1944.


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Post by michael mills » 26 Feb 2004 10:30

The Hungarians reportedly hanged four captured, non-white British/British Commonwealth airmen in Budapest over the summer of 1944.


What was their nationality? Indian?

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Post by Penn44 » 26 Feb 2004 11:24

michael mills wrote:
The Hungarians reportedly hanged four captured, non-white British/British Commonwealth airmen in Budapest over the summer of 1944.


What was their nationality? Indian?


Unknown nationality. The whole alleged incident may simply have been a rumor. The director of the Hungarian Holocaust Museum told me he had read of the incident, but he did not specify his source.

At the time, the Hungarians were very upset about the Allied bombing of Hungary, feelings further aggraviated by propaganda against Allied flyers in general and black airmen in particular. There are several cases where the Hungarians singled out African-American and Jewish-American airmen for physical abuse or threats of death because of their race/ethnicity.

My understanding from a former professor of mine, a former RAF airman and military historian, that there were some racial/ethnic minorities in the RAF, and that British/British Commonwealth aircrews did not segregate racial/ethnic minorities into separate aircrews. Considering this, if non-white racial/ethnic groups were a minority in the RAF, it would be somewhat unusual, numerically at least, for the Hungarians to be able to collect four non-white RAF flyers at one time to hang them, but it possibily could happen.


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Post by PF » 12 Dec 2004 18:29

Note check CWGC Debt of Honour website
Under cemeteries type "Budapest"
Note there are 209 burials listed !!!

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Pisti3
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Airman

Post by Pisti3 » 17 Sep 2005 12:26

Would the Liberator be a Rover,and the bombs bottles of wine,they would not hanged.Budapest was bombed of us planes in months.Their well managed cemetery is at a stretcrossing near Üröm.Destroying and burning up civilian cities is a warcrime, right. :idea:

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Post by Erich Hartmann » 17 Sep 2005 13:27

Yes I know lynching is in itself bad but can't it be really classified as a war crime?
If the tortured population suffering from bombing raids get's their hands on the perpetrators...
isn't it a tiny bit understandable??? :(

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Re: Airman

Post by lavella » 17 Sep 2005 18:49

Pisti3 wrote:Destroying and burning up civilian cities is a warcrime, right. :idea:


Bonsoir

As for bombings cities and civilians .,morally speaking ,it's obviously a crime ,.......but.always the same question : Who did begin first ?
Have you ever heard of Guernica , Warshaw , Rotterdam , Coventry ? London?

Like old saying goes “ Who sows the wind reaps the whirlwind"

from M.Mills post
Were they numerous, non white WW2 RAF airmen ?

amicalement
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Post by David Thompson » 18 Sep 2005 00:37

A post from lavella, quoting the post of Pisti3 at viewtopic.php?p=767814#767814 without comment, was duplicated by this moderator as redundant.

Erich Hartmann-- You wrote:
Yes I know lynching is in itself bad but can't it be really classified as a war crime?
If the tortured population suffering from bombing raids get's their hands on the perpetrators...
isn't it a tiny bit understandable??? :(

(1) The murder of prisoners of war has been considered a war crime for several hundred years, and in WWII was prohibited by the:

Hague II Conference of 1899, Annex, Article 4.
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/hague02.htm
Hague IV Conference of 1907, Annex, Article 4.
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/hague04.htm
Geneva Conference of 1929, Article 2
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/geneva02.htm

(2) In WWII encouraging, aiding, and condoning the lynching of captured aviators was a policy of the German government in 1944-1945. See "Other" War Crimes -- POW Lynchings at:
viewtopic.php?t=14467

(3) The same logic ("If the tortured population suffering from bombing raids get's their hands on the perpetrators...") justifies the mistreatment and murder of German troops and civilians in central, southern and eastern Europe in 1944-1945. See the thread "An eye for an eye" at:
viewtopic.php?t=65306
for a discussion of the problems associated with this point of view.

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Post by nny » 18 Sep 2005 05:53

Erich Hartmann-- You wrote:
Yes I know lynching is in itself bad but can't it be really classified as a war crime?
If the tortured population suffering from bombing raids get's their hands on the perpetrators...
isn't it a tiny bit understandable??? :(

(1) The murder of prisoners of war has been considered a war crime for several hundred years, and in WWII was prohibited by the:

Hague II Conference of 1899, Annex, Article 4.
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/hague02.htm
Hague IV Conference of 1907, Annex, Article 4.
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/hague04.htm
Geneva Conference of 1929, Article 2
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/geneva02.htm

(2) In WWII encouraging, aiding, and condoning the lynching of captured aviators was a policy of the German government in 1944-1945. See "Other" War Crimes -- POW Lynchings at:
viewtopic.php?t=14467

(3) The same logic ("If the tortured population suffering from bombing raids get's their hands on the perpetrators...") justifies the mistreatment and murder of German troops and civilians in central, southern and eastern Europe in 1944-1945. See the thread "An eye for an eye" at:
viewtopic.php?t=65306
for a discussion of the problems associated with this point of view.


are civilians subject to the same 'rules of war' as soldiers are? When allied (or axis) pilots bomb / strafe a civilian target, get shot and crash land and find themselves at the mercy of civilians, are the civilians subject to the same rules of war that the pilots / crew were? Or are they subject to civilian criminal law in regards to the governing area? I'm not saying that German (Italian, French, British, Polish, Soviet) should be able to take revenge on any captured enemy soldier they encounter, but if an axis / allied bomber crew crash lands in enemy territory, a territory that they were engaging in the bombing of civilian targets, what else should they expect from the civilian population? I'm trying to put myself in the position of the Polish / German / English / Japanese victims of areal bombardment and I can tell you that I wouldn't need any sort of 'encouragement' from my government to pursue retribution for my family / friends, and I am assuming that that goes for the vast majority of people.

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Post by David Thompson » 18 Sep 2005 08:00

nny -- You asked:
are civilians subject to the same 'rules of war' as soldiers are? When allied (or axis) pilots bomb / strafe a civilian target, get shot and crash land and find themselves at the mercy of civilians, are the civilians subject to the same rules of war that the pilots / crew were? Or are they subject to civilian criminal law in regards to the governing area?

The way the Hague and Geneva Conventions are written, the different countries signing the agreements pledge to respect certain rules or customs in the treatment of soldiers and civilians in times of war. The rules or customs of war consist of a series of permitted and prohibited acts. Some acts apply specifically to members of the armed forces, while others apply to the country generally. It is the country, not just its armed forces, which exchanges the pledge with other nations to respect the laws of war. As a matter of common sense, the pledge must extend to the citizens of the country, or it wouldn't be of much value.

Certainly if the civilian is a government functionary (police officer, fireman, national, state, local or municipal official, etc.) who isn't serving in the armed forces, he is bound by a treaty or a convention signed by his government just as a soldier would be, and has a duty to enforce the provisions of the treaty. That's why civilian functionaries of the German government could be put on trial for war crimes, such as the mistreatment of the populations of occupied areas and the mistreatment of POWs (as slave laborers, shooting recaptured escapees, etc.).

As a practical matter, civilian lynchers are initially subject to civilian or military criminal laws in the area where the lynching takes place. If the authorities in the governing area don't enforce those laws, or connive at the lynchings as part of a broader national policy as happened in 1944-1945, the aggrieved nation can treat a lynching as a war crime. If the authorities in the area are extinguished by conquest, as they were in Germany, the aggrieved nation can treat the lynchings as ordinary criminal homicides or as war crimes.

From my readings, most of the lynched airmen in 1944-1945 Germany had surrendered and been taken into custody by German authorities before they were killed.

You also said:
I'm trying to put myself in the position of the Polish / German / English / Japanese victims of areal bombardment and I can tell you that I wouldn't need any sort of 'encouragement' from my government to pursue retribution for my family / friends, and I am assuming that that goes for the vast majority of people.

The assumption that a vast majority of people would personally exact retribution is, I think, mistaken. Certainly in the case of Germany in 1944-1945, the number was rather small -- several hundred persons, perhaps as many as a thousand, out of a population of scores of millions. As for those few persons, that's why countries have gallows and prisons.

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book

Post by Pisti3 » 18 Sep 2005 13:52

Additional for Pen44's book. Those white or non white air-gangsters massakred judes and non-judes in our city.The airmans you are trying write about was probably bloody handed masskillers.The other is pure romantic.

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