Allied Intervention Force during the Russian Civil War

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Matt H.
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Postby Matt H. » 04 Mar 2004 10:21

Btw most of the Red Army Commanders were also former czarist officers.


Approximately 50,000. Including the great General Brusilov.

I'm sure Trotsky, his commissars and their revolvers had something to do with that.

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Kunikov
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Postby Kunikov » 04 Mar 2004 18:12

Matt H. wrote:
Btw most of the Red Army Commanders were also former czarist officers.


Approximately 50,000. Including the great General Brusilov.

I'm sure Trotsky, his commissars and their revolvers had something to do with that.


Holding families hostage did indeed persuade many to cooperate :wink:

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Retro
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Postby Retro » 09 Mar 2004 14:20

Number of officers in Red Army change during Civil War. One must notice that it was years 1917 – 1922 (as I remabre in this year Bolschevicks distroy East Asian Cavallry Divisin Baron Unger von Strenberg). In first piriod Officers who came in to red army ended generaly in prisons. Larges number of oficers in RKKA was in 1920 – during War with Poland!!!
Se alsow viewtopic.php?t=29959

Karman
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Postby Karman » 27 Aug 2004 10:45

Kunikov wrote:
Matt H. wrote:
Btw most of the Red Army Commanders were also former czarist officers.


Approximately 50,000. Including the great General Brusilov.

I'm sure Trotsky, his commissars and their revolvers had something to do with that.


Holding families hostage did indeed persuade many to cooperate :wink:


I cannot agree with you. There is a modern Russian researcher Kavtaradze who studied the topic of participation of the former Czar officers (actually not only but Temporary government also). You can find more exact figures of his studies in the Russian speaking web. As far as I remember slightly more then 30% joined the whites, slightly less then 30% joined the reds and about 30% completely ignored the participation in the civil war. a bit less then 50% of the military intellectual elite - officers of the General Staff joined the reds. Most of the officers who joined the whites were not professional and got their ranks after the February Revolution. Famous Czar general Bonch-Bruevich one of the heads of the czar defense security intelligence participated in the subjection of the rebels of some General Staff officers against the reds. And he wrote about that in his memoirs that he was glad that those were not real military elite but the graduators of the Kerenskiy crank up class.

Besides we should not forget that after the February 1917 Revolution the future leaders of the whites seized the power in the Army and in the country. Alekseev became the Supreme Commander-in-Chief and Kornilov became the Commander of Petrograd Command so got the supreme military power in the capital in which police forces were dispelled and all prisons wide open. They did not know about the launch of notorious Order No1 but authorized its implementation in the army, so with their authority (Aekseev mostly since Kornilov and Denikin were revolution social climbers) they sponsored the collapse of the army and of the country as a whole. Most of the officers did not forgive them that. We should also keep in mind the purges in the Army under Alekseev command when those who did not agree with the liberals were dispelled.

And when the old army collapsed they announced organization of volunteer white army to continue WW1. Any continuation of the WW1 was a stupid and criminal decision for Russia in those circumstances.

Kolchak supported the Entente reckless adventure to organize anti-German joint Russian-Japanese Eastern front in the Urals. British and French ambassadors sponsored the gathering of officers for that gamble. It actually meant recognition of Japanese occupation of Siberia and German occupation of all Western Russia up to the Urals.

So I can understand why most of officers ignored their attempts.

About the formation of the Red Army. Baron Budberg recalled that he visited the General Staff HQ in Petrograd some time in December 1917. And his colleagues told him that Lenin, Trotskiy and Krylenko (warrant officer and the last Supreme Commander-in-Chief of the Old Army) came to the General Staff the day before and ordered them to work out the trends of organization of the new (red) army. Czar General Bonch-Bruevich recalled that Lenin offered him to head the red army but he refused as he was not neither a worker nor a peasant.

The SOVNARCOM (Council of Peoples Commissars) formed the All-Russia Collegiums on Organization of RKKA (red army). The board included Krylenko, Yurenev and N. M. Potapov. The latter was a Czar general and the head of the Czar Military Intelligence who voluntarily joined bolsheviks.

Yes, I agree that Trotskiy used families hostage system but it does not give the full picture.

If we speak about the future fate of those supreme Czar military officers then some of them peacefully died before the Stalin purges (like admiral Altfater the founder of red navy, colonel Kamenev and others) some were purged by Stalin (like brilliant Czar colonel Svechin or general Rackel) but some peacefully died after all the purges (like the above Bonch-Bruevich and Potapov). Czar General Staff colonel Shaposhnikov became one of the supreme Soviet officers and the main Stalin's military advisor.

In 1943 Stalin ordered to form Military Commission or envisaging the terms of the future German capitulation. The Commission included Czar Colonel Shaposhnikov and Czar general count Ignatiev (another intelligence officer) among the others. .

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henryk
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Postby henryk » 27 Jan 2005 21:02

Although the primary thrust of the Allied Forces in Northern Russia were against the Bolsheviks, here is one campaign against the White Finns.
Information from Canadians in Russia, 1918-1919, Roy MacLaren (pages 88, 120).
During WWI the Allies shipped to the Arctic Russian ports, Murmansk and Archangel, war supplies to an extent beyond the capacity of the transportation system. A massive backlog developed. With the Bolshevik revolution and peace with the Central Powers, the Allies were concerned that these supplies would be made available to the Central Powers and the ports taken over by them. An Allied Force, including Canadians and Americans, was despatched to preclude this.
Battles took place between the Bolsheviks and the Allied Force. In September/October 1918 a Canadian led contingent, which included the Red Finnish Legion, moved west and drove the White Finns, considered allies of the Central Powers ( but opponents of the Bolsheviks), to the Finnish border. The White Finns, supported by German troops, had driven the communists out of Helsinki earlier in the year.
Subsequently the Canadians negotiated a return of the Finnish legion to Finland.
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e.polis
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Postby e.polis » 30 Mar 2005 16:05

I beleive that Australia also had a small force of military personel stationed at Archangle, certainly they were AIF redirected from France in 1919

PF
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Re: Allied Intervention Force during the Russian Civil War

Postby PF » 27 Jun 2013 23:11

Postscript-E.M. halliday "Where Ignorant Armies Clashed by Night"
http://www.americanheritage.com/content ... shed-night

Krylenko shot 1938
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krylenko

anthonymcevoy
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Re: Allied Intervention Force during the Russian Civil War

Postby anthonymcevoy » 27 Nov 2013 13:49

Hi,

I am looking for information on a Lt. John Joseph Hitching (aka John Joseph "Jack" O'Brien-Hitching) who was on secondment to a/the "Special Brigade Royal Engineers" and was part of the Allied Intervention Force sent to Northern Russia 1917-1919. He received the Military Cross and was mentioned twice in dispatches during his time in and around Archangel.
After the British pulled out of Archangel he appears to have been attached to Gen Gough's staff on the Inter-Allied Mission, Finland.

I have been told that he became some sort of Liaison Officer between the British and Finnish General Staff...though I have been told this was during the 1930's.

I know that he became part of the British Volunteer group that joined the Finnish Army during the Winter War.

Any help greatly appreciated.

jeger
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Re: Allied Intervention Force during the Russian Civil War

Postby jeger » 11 Jan 2014 10:20

Too little and too late on all fronts like in the vital battle for Petrograd /St Petersburg on the Baltic, were white land forces were supported by only one ship of the Royal Navy in spite of British promises of heavy support of ship/short art fire or take the case of general Miller in the North where the fighting came to a stand still due to lack of supplies and troops and white forces included the allied forces were outnumbered and outgunned and had to be withdrawn and finally, in the South where general Wrangel and his troops after general Denikins departure for Konstantinopel (Istambul)was left without any support at all in spite of French promises.
Jeger


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