Can this be true?

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jmh8300
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Can this be true?

Post by jmh8300 » 06 Mar 2004 02:04

My parents, aware of my historical interest in the Holocaust, mentioned that they had recently seen a TV programme on the History Channel (in the UK) where the children of certain pre-eminent Nazis had travelled to Israel to meet the children of survivors of the Holocaust.

During the programme (which I did not see and have not seen) the apparent murder of Jewish victims by placing them in a large "frying pan" was mentioned. My parents asked if I had ever heard of such a cruel and barbaric method of execution in the course of my studies. I replied that I had never heard of the Nazis murdering Jews in this way.

Would any member of the forum like to comment on this allegation? Is there any evidence the Nazis executed Jews by placing them in some sort of frying pan? I hope I can rest my parents' worrying minds and reassure them that such cruelty was not used.

Thank you,

James

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Post by Dan » 06 Mar 2004 02:14

Tell them it is just another rumor, like the Soap Libel, or the Lampshade Libel. It didn't happen, even though many bad things happened to many people all over the world during the 30s and 40s.

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Penn44
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Post by Penn44 » 06 Mar 2004 07:12

Dan wrote:Tell them it is just another rumor, like the Soap Libel, or the Lampshade Libel. It didn't happen, even though many bad things happened to many people all over the world during the 30s and 40s.
Dan, you seem to be minimizing the significance of the Holocaust. Do you deny that the Germans genocidally murdered 4.2-6 million Jews?


Penn44

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agibaer
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Post by agibaer » 06 Mar 2004 07:44

Hi jmh!

These meetings between children of Nazis and children of jewish KZ-victims are organized by Dan Bar-On, a famous Israeli Psychologist. Here's a good Info on it:
http://www.nahost-politik.de/psychologie/bar-on.htm
Martin Bormann Jr took part in some meetings as well.

Best regards
robert

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Re: Can this be true?

Post by Vadim » 06 Mar 2004 08:16

jmh8300 wrote:I hope I can rest my parents' worrying minds and reassure them that such cruelty was not used
Yes, please reassure them that only humane methods like gassing were used... :roll:

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Re: Can this be true?

Post by Earldor » 06 Mar 2004 10:53

Vadim wrote:
jmh8300 wrote:I hope I can rest my parents' worrying minds and reassure them that such cruelty was not used
Yes, please reassure them that only humane methods like gassing were used... :roll:
Most likely the story about a roasting is a misunderstanding or a rumour,
but besides the numerous occasions when the Nazis or their cronies burned Jews alive in different locations, there was the incident near Konin reported by Mieczyslaw Sekiewicz, quoted in Richard Rhodes' "Masters of Death; The SS Einsatzgruppen and the Invention of the Holocaust" pp. 201-203:

"In the middle of November 1941, at four o'clock in the morning, Gestapo men came to my prison cell and told me to get ready for a trip [...]

In the crowd there were women, men, children, mothers with children in their arms. Whether they were all Polish Jews I cannot say. I was told later that they came from Zagorow [a village fifteen miles southwest of Konin downriver]. Among them I recognized a tailor and a shopkeeper from Konin, but I don't know their names.

The paths, the clearings, the whole forest swarmed with Germans. Besides the three of us brought from Konin there were about thirty other Poles assembled there. I don't know where they came from. On the bottom of the larger pit I saw a layer of quicklime. I don't know how thick the layer was. There was no lime in the smaller pit. The Gestapo men warned us that the forest was surrounded and closely watched, and if we attempted to escape we would be shot in the head.

Then they ordered the assembled Jews to strip - first those who were standing near the large pit. They ordered the naked people to jump into the larger pit. I could not describe the wailing and the crying. Some Jews were jumping without an order - even most of them - some were resisting and they were beaten about and pushed down. Some mothers jumped in holding their children, some were throwing their children in, others were flinging their children aside. Still others threw the children in first and then jumped in. Some were crawling at the feet of the Gestapo men kissing their boots, their rifle butts and the like. We were told to go among the standing Jews and collect clothing and shoes. I saw Gestapo men come up to where we were heaping watches, rings, jewelry, and stuff their pockets with them. Seeing that, some of us, and I among them, stopped putting anything precious in heaps, but threw watches, rings further into the forest.

Suddenly the Gestapo men ordered the Jews not to undress any more, as the pit was full. Only closely packed heads were to be seen when one looked into the pit. The Jews already stripped naked were thrown by the Gestapo men onto the heads of those already crammed in the pit. [...]

I noticed four vat-like containers. Then the Germans set up a small motor - it was probably a pump - connected it with hoses to one of the vats and two of them brought the hoses from the motor up to the pit. They started the motor and the two Gestapo men began to pour some liquid on the Jews. I think it was water, at any rate it looked like water. The hose was connected in turn to the other containers. Apparently, because of the slaking of the lime, people in the pit were boiling alive.* The cries were so terrible that we who were sitting by the piles of clothing began to tear pieces off to stop our ears. The crying of those boiling in the pit was joined by the wailing and lamentation of the Jews waiting for their perdition. [...]

The next morning the Gestapo men ordered us to cover the large pit with soil. The pit looked as if it had been dusted with a layer of earth. The human mass inside it seemed to have collapsed and dropped to the bottom. The bodies were so tightly packed that they looked as if they were standing, only the heads lolled in all directions. We did not fill the pit very thoroughly and the hands of some of the corpses were still sticking out, because trucks began to arrive and we were stopped. [...]"

At a time when killing technologies were still under development at Auschwitz and elsewhere, this fathomless horror seems to have been an attempt - most probably, given the location, by Globocnik's subordinates - to combine killing and corpse processing into one operation: slaked lime dissolves organic matter, including human tissue, which is why the "human mass" the veterinarian [Sekiewicz, my clarification] saw the morning after the massacre seemed to have "collapsed and dropped to the bottom." The victims were not literally boiled alive, although the slaking process liberates a great deal of heat; they were chemically burned to death and partly dissolved by being flooded with the calcium equivalent of household bleach.

*When quicklime, calcium oxide, is slaked - hydrated with water - it becomes calcium hydroxide, a powerful caustic."

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Post by David Thompson » 06 Mar 2004 13:17

Readers interested in the Sekiewicz story might have a look at:

"Death by Quicklime"
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=23456

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Post by Dan » 06 Mar 2004 16:10

Dan, you seem to be minimizing the significance of the Holocaust. Do you deny that the Germans genocidally murdered 4.2-6 million Jews?
What happened to the 4.5 million figure you and Schultz decided on for the lower limit defining racism? How long ago was that? 3 months? That would average out to a 100,000 per month reduction. What will the number be in 4 years?

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Post by Penn44 » 06 Mar 2004 18:16

Dan wrote:
Dan, you seem to be minimizing the significance of the Holocaust. Do you deny that the Germans genocidally murdered 4.2-6 million Jews?
What happened to the 4.5 million figure you and Schultz decided on for the lower limit defining racism? How long ago was that? 3 months? That would average out to a 100,000 per month reduction. What will the number be in 4 years?

Answer the question. Do you deny the Holocaust?

Penn44

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Re: Can this be true?

Post by 1812 » 06 Mar 2004 18:20

Vadim wrote:
jmh8300 wrote:I hope I can rest my parents' worrying minds and reassure them that such cruelty was not used
Yes, please reassure them that only humane methods like gassing were used... :roll:
Better gassing and shoting then being literally fried. Which would you prefer?

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Post by agibaer » 06 Mar 2004 18:33

I'd prefer to live :?

regards
robert

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Post by David Thompson » 06 Mar 2004 18:38

Please stick to arguing the topics raised in the threads and avoid personal taunts and provocations. This is a section of the forum where facts and well-thought out opinions are exchanged. If a poster wants to proclaim his or her personal beliefs in a subject or point of view, they may. This section of the forum is not meant to function as an inquisition, a Star Chamber or House Un-American Activities Committee.
Last edited by David Thompson on 06 Mar 2004 18:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Vadim
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Re: Can this be true?

Post by Vadim » 06 Mar 2004 18:41

1812 wrote:Better gassing and shoting then being literally fried. Which would you prefer?
Neither.

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Kunikov
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Re: Can this be true?

Post by Kunikov » 06 Mar 2004 18:44

1812 wrote:
Vadim wrote:
jmh8300 wrote:I hope I can rest my parents' worrying minds and reassure them that such cruelty was not used
Yes, please reassure them that only humane methods like gassing were used... :roll:
Better gassing and shoting then being literally fried. Which would you prefer?
Well being gassed wasn't that pleasant...shot to the head would be the quickest method, but apparently it was too much money and took a serious mental toll on those performing the action.

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Post by Mauser K98k » 07 Mar 2004 04:57

It's only logical that there were gruesome methods of murder committed that have been unreported because no one lived to tell.

However, you cannot accuse anyone of these types of horror stories without proof.

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