Can this be true?

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Jeremy Chan
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Post by Jeremy Chan » 14 Mar 2004 04:34

Penn44 wrote:
michael mills wrote: Nevertheless, it appears he wants to go on believing in the "frypan" story, despite the fact that it has been disproved. Well, you cannot stop people believing what they want to believe, in spite of the evidence.

I have to agree with xcalibur that Michael Mills did not understand or misrepresented what mh8300 wrote. The allegation that the Germans used a "frying pan" type of murder instrument was not disproven, merely that there was no evidence to substantiate it. I have to say this, I find it hard to believe that the Germans would fry Jews to death as they would no doubt stick to the bottom of the pan, and would be difficult to scrub off. When was Teflon invented?

Unfortunately, Panzermahn is not here to offer the counter-accusation, "Did the Bolsheviks fry German POWs" since it fits his previous claim that Russian soldiers ate German POWs.


Penn44
Penn44, I shall have to offer more rebuttals to the 'extermination by frying pan' claim. Such an assertion is completely outlandish and a ridiculous way of mass-murder to be even thought by it's perpatrators.
Do you realise how big that 'frying pan' would have to be??? It would have to be larger than an Olympic-size swimming pool. And where would you place it? In a kitchen?!? If such a claim was to be made, it could've been a 'furnace' instead of a 'frying pan'. That might be more believeable.
Also, I don't think Teflon was around at the time, but to avoid getting to anti-Semitic, I must say that a hellof a lot of oil would have to be used. And since gassing was devised as a cheaper method of extermination, I have to say that 'frying' would have to be too expensive and a waste of precious resources.
Gassing didn't give a quick or painless death but it was much cheaper than frying. What's next? Boiling in oil?? 8O :roll:
Last edited by Jeremy Chan on 14 Mar 2004 06:11, edited 1 time in total.

alf
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Post by alf » 14 Mar 2004 05:51

The frying pan story and Micheals underground killing complex quote are merely red herrings to try and distract away from the fact that German Death Camps existed.

I quoted from the 1943 Polish Black Book, Michael quoted from the 1944 Jewish Black Book ( a Russian anti-facist publication) BOTH had a mixture of propoganda, error and truth mixed together, as did all wartime propaganda.

Any serious researcher knows that and knows that such stories were disproven over 50 years ago. They still surface from time to time and always will.

The question is why raise such a distraction that has been demonstrated clearly wrong post war ? Unless of course it is to distract, if so it has done its job beautifully, denialism isnt allowed here but subtle distraction obviously is.

The focus should remain on the Death Camps.

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Sergey Romanov
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Post by Sergey Romanov » 14 Mar 2004 08:45

Amateur rightist historian Michael Mills wrote:
Sergey Romanov does the same thing as Alf, he confuses two different books.
Since you yourself "dare to say" that the account is the same, you shoot yourself in the foot, since original Russian account is incompatible with your fantasies above. It might so happen that English version was altered for publication by someone for whatever purpose, but it is highly improbable, you did not give any evidence of this and, what's more, it would render your "critique" of account worthless, since it is not an original anyway.

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Sergey Romanov
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Post by Sergey Romanov » 14 Mar 2004 08:53

Here's translation of the text I gave links to above, taken from http://www.ukar.org/arad05.html
Various means were employed to effect this mass slaughter. One of them was by forcing the exhaust fumes from the engine of a heavy tank that served as the Treblinka power station into the chambers.
(Vasily Grossman, Treblinka, in Ilya Ehrenburg and Vasily Grossman (eds.), The Black Book, Holocaust Library, New York, published in Hebrew in 1980, published in English in 1981, p. 417)

The second method, and one that was the most widely used, was pumping air out of the chambers with suction pumps until the victims were dead. As in the case of the first method, death was caused by depriving the victims of oxygen.

The third method, used less but nevertheless used, was murder with steam. This method, too, aimed at depriving the organism of oxygen, for the steam was used to expel the air from the chambers.

Diverse poisons, too, were employed, but this was experimentation; the first two were the methods used for mass murder on industrial scale.
(Vasily Grossman, Treblinka, in Ilya Ehrenburg and Vasily Grossman (eds.), The Black Book, Holocaust Library, New York, published in Hebrew in 1980, published in English in 1981, p. 418)
Case closed.

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Post by Erik » 14 Mar 2004 13:37

Alf:
Any serious researcher knows that and knows that such stories were disproven over 50 years ago. They still surface from time to time and always will.
The question is why raise such a distraction that has been demonstrated clearly wrong post war ? Unless of course it is to distract, if so it has done its job beautifully, denialism isnt allowed here but subtle distraction obviously is.

The focus should remain on the Death Camps.



Sergey Romanov:
Since you yourself "dare to say" that the account is the same, you shoot yourself in the foot, since original Russian account is incompatible with your fantasies above. It might so happen that English version was altered for publication by someone for whatever purpose, but it is highly improbable, you did not give any evidence of this and, what's more, it would render your "critique" of account worthless, since it is not an original anyway.
Some questions on “methods of history” lead us to distraction here.

"Should" the focus “remain” on the Death Camps, without “denialism” or “subtle distraction”, then we must apparently stay away from their “history”, if we follow the recommendation of alf!

That sound more like religion than history to me, forbidding the “looking back” on the “Apocrypha”, once the "dis(ap)proving" has closed the case.

Sergey Romanov, on the other hand, recommends going back to “the original”, and does not exclude categorically that the original can be altered “for publication” when it is translated to other languages---“for whatever purposes”.

' "Critique" of account' footed on altered originals tends to shoot itself in the foot, once the original can be established.

He knows that it is “highly improbable”, but perhaps will admit that such alterations have been done in history -- in order to “focus” on what is “proven”, or to avoid “subtle distraction” from what is proven.

But the question “how?” is likely to “surface from time to time and always will”.

He gives links on side 2, to the “original Russian account”, not scanned(?) but published on the Net (still “original”?).

But he quotes from an 1981 edition, translated into English from(?) an edition “published in Hebrew in 1980”.
(Vasily Grossman, Treblinka, in Ilya Ehrenburg and Vasily Grossman (eds.), The Black Book, Holocaust Library, New York, published in Hebrew in 1980, published in English in 1981, p. 417).
Case closed
But if you “mind” being “closed” – do you mind to read Sergey Romanov’s statement above, once again?

The case “leaks”, doesn’t it?

What is the original Russian account?

Mr. Mills wrote:
He is referring to a book published in the Soviet Union by Il'ia Erenburg, commonly referred to as "The Black Book". That work was in fact suppressed. It deals mainly with repressions of Jews by German forces on the territory of the occupied Soviet Union.

I was referring to a book published in New York in 1946. It is called "The Black Book: The Nazi Crime against the Jewish People". Its scope is Europe-wide, not restricted to the Soviet Union. And yes, I have read that book.

I dare say the account of Treblinka by Grossman published in "The Black Book: The Nazi crime Against the Jewish People", is the same as the account that appeared in the Erenburg work.


Suppressed but still published, and the one read in the “original account” by Sergey Romanov on the Russian website?

Alf would not care which account is original, since the focus ought to remain on the Death Camps, and not on what is “clearly wrong”.

“The case is closed”, historically?

But sometimes we would like (to know/learn how) to choose ourselves, and how our Founding Fathers of Historical Truth chose what is “clearly right”, when they “closed the case”.

What “subtle distraction” disappeared in the translation? Why was an “original account”…”clearly wrong”
[…] what's more, it would render your "critique" of account worthless, since it is not an original anyway.
(Sergey Romanov.)

When is an “approbation” worthless (“clearly wrong”), although it is as “original” as can be?

(Ehrenburg was close in time and place when he "accounted" Treblinka.)

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Sergey Romanov
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Post by Sergey Romanov » 14 Mar 2004 13:41

> nd does not exclude categorically that the original can be altered ?for publication? when it is translated to other languages---?for whatever purposes?.

Only to be charitable to local amateur rightist historian.

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Post by michael mills » 14 Mar 2004 23:27

Sergei Romanov wrote:
Case closed.
There is in fact no case to answer.

The whole issue of this thread is a rumour that Jews were put to death en masse using some sort of "frypan" methodology.

I demonstrated that that rumour related to the Sonderlager Belzec, in respect of which a claim was made during the war that the Jews were killed by electrocution in a giant pool, after which the metal floor of the pool was raised above the level of the water and used to cremate the bodies of the victims by continuing to pass electricity through it so that it heated up and became in effect a "frypan".

I showed that that wartime rumour, later shown to be false by the investigations of the post-war Polish investigation commission, was published in the 1946 book "The Black Book: The Nazi Crime Against the Jewish People" (Note that this is NOT the "Black Book" compiled by the Soviet Jewish propagandist Il'ia Erenburg).

I also stated that the same book contained an account of Treblinka by the Soviet Jewish propagandist Vassilii Grossman, in which he nominated steam as a method of mass-killing. I did that as an example of another false rumour that circulated in wartime about the Sonderlager at which extermination of Jews took place.

Tomorrow I will go to the Australian National University Library and re-check the account given in "The Black Book". In the meantime, we can make some surmises about Grossman's account.

It is obvious that Grossman had heard three different tales about how the mass-killing at the Treblinka Sonderlager was accomplished:

1. By pumping into the chamber exhaust fumes from an engine. This is the method that was decided on by the post-war Polish commission, and confirmed by former German camp staff.

2. By pumping the air out of the chamber.

3. By pumping steam into the chamber.

Grossman was unable to determine which of these three versions was correct. He tried to find some rational basis for the stories, and concluded that in all three cases, the way of causing death was to deprive the victims of oxygen.

Of the three methods, he decided that number 2 was the one most widely used. He considered that method number 1 would not suffice to kill the vast number of victims.

So Grossman got it wrong. Method number 2, which he concluded was the most widely used method, was not used at all (and would have been impractical); nor was method number 3.

It is not surprising that Grossman got it wrong, given the lack of reliable information at the time. But the real issue is to examine how the false rumours (electrocution, pumping out air, steam) arose in the first place. My surmise is that they had their origin in the confusion of observed procedures, eg the delousing of clothes with steam, with the accounts of killing of Jews in enclosed chambers.

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Post by Penn44 » 14 Mar 2004 23:50

michael mills wrote:The "frying pan" story most likely is related to an early rumour about methods of extermination at the Belzec Camp. That rumour was published in the 1946 book "Black Book: The Nazi Crime Agianst the Jewish People".
Has any sources specifically refer to the rumored Belzec execution method as the "frying pan" method?


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Sergey Romanov
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Post by Sergey Romanov » 15 Mar 2004 00:41

> > There is in fact no case to answer.

Besides the fact that you got everything wrong - yes.

> He tried to find some rational basis for the stories, and concluded that in all three cases, the way of causing death was to deprive the victims of oxygen.

It depends on what you mean by depriving of oxygen. In the first case he explicitly describes the process of CO poisoning with all the chemical (something about carboxyhemoglobin, etc.) and medical details (it's not in the quoted excerpt).

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Post by michael mills » 15 Mar 2004 00:57

Sergey Romanov wrote:
Besides the fact that you got everything wrong - yes.
That is a blatant distortion.

Grossman did give steam as one of the methods of killing used. And he also concluded that pumping in exhaust gas from an engine was not the main method of killing, since in his view it would not be capable of killing the vast numbers exterminated at Treblinka.

It seems to me that there is a possibility that Grossman's doubts about the efficacy of exhaust gas as a methodology of mass-killing was edited out of the Hebrew edition of Erenburg's "Black Book", which was not published until 1980. But confirmation of that surmise will to wait until I can recheck the book published in 1946, which contains the first English translation of Grossman's account.

I really think Sergey Romanov's neo-Stalinist methodology of ferreting out "enemies of the people" by picking on particular phrases in their writings as "proof" is not really helpful.

What we should be focussing on is the fact that in 1943 and 1944 there were a number of rumours circulating about the methods of mass-killing at Sonderlager Belzec and Sonderlager Treblinka which fopund their way into contemporary accounts, and trying to determine how those mistaken rumours arose, and what they tell us about the actual course of events.

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Post by Sergey Romanov » 15 Mar 2004 01:06

Either it's our amateur rightist historian's sloppiness, or the result of the applying of neo-Nazi methodology of the "Big Lie".

>>Besides the fact that you got everything wrong - yes.

>That is a blatant distortion.

>Grossman did give steam as one of the methods of killing used. And he >also concluded that pumping in exhaust gas from an engine was not the >main method of killing, since in his view it would not be capable of killing >the vast numbers exterminated at Treblinka.

Here's the _original_ claim of our amateur rightist historian:
This book also contains a description of the extermination camp at Treblinka by the Soviet Jewish Communist propagandist Vassilii Grossman, in which he claims that the method of killing was by steam.

Grossman in fact examines the possibility that the killing methodology was gassing with engine exhaust, but dismisses it as not capable of killing the vast numbers allegedly exterminated at that camp. Why it was not capable he does not say; perhaps he meant that it would consume too much fuel.
As I have shown, Grossman did not dismiss engine exhaust as "not capable of killing the vast numbers".

Since Mills only mentions 2 methods, and dismisses one of them, his words could only mean that Grossman claimed that steam was _the_ main killing agent at Treblinka. As I have shown, Grossman claims the _exact_ opposite.

The only blatant distortions are Mills'.
Last edited by Sergey Romanov on 15 Mar 2004 01:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by David Thompson » 15 Mar 2004 01:37

Please avoid personal remarks in posts.

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Penn44
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Post by Penn44 » 15 Mar 2004 02:34

Colonel SteelFist wrote:
Penn44 wrote:
michael mills wrote: Nevertheless, it appears he wants to go on believing in the "frypan" story, despite the fact that it has been disproved. Well, you cannot stop people believing what they want to believe, in spite of the evidence.

I have to agree with xcalibur that Michael Mills did not understand or misrepresented what mh8300 wrote. The allegation that the Germans used a "frying pan" type of murder instrument was not disproven, merely that there was no evidence to substantiate it. I have to say this, I find it hard to believe that the Germans would fry Jews to death as they would no doubt stick to the bottom of the pan, and would be difficult to scrub off. When was Teflon invented?

Unfortunately, Panzermahn is not here to offer the counter-accusation, "Did the Bolsheviks fry German POWs" since it fits his previous claim that Russian soldiers ate German POWs.


Penn44
Penn44, I shall have to offer more rebuttals to the 'extermination by frying pan' claim. Such an assertion is completely outlandish and a ridiculous way of mass-murder to be even thought by it's perpatrators.
Do you realise how big that 'frying pan' would have to be??? It would have to be larger than an Olympic-size swimming pool. And where would you place it? In a kitchen?!? If such a claim was to be made, it could've been a 'furnace' instead of a 'frying pan'. That might be more believeable.
Also, I don't think Teflon was around at the time, but to avoid getting to anti-Semitic, I must say that a hellof a lot of oil would have to be used. And since gassing was devised as a cheaper method of extermination, I have to say that 'frying' would have to be too expensive and a waste of precious resources.
Gassing didn't give a quick or painless death but it was much cheaper than frying. What's next? Boiling in oil?? 8O :roll:
I have serious doubts regarding the validity of the "frying pan" claim. One cannot rule out every bizzare story as a matter of course one hears regarding alleged Nazi attrocities because some German personnel engaged in some bizarre experiments, tortures, etc. of Jews and other persons. Even Himmler was concerned that the Jewish soap claim was real and asked his assistants to look into it. For the sake of adequate argumentation, I would like to ensure that the frying pan claim was in fact a reference to an alleged method(s) of destruction employed at Belzec. If we too immediately assume that the "frying pan" allegation was merely a colloquial description of the alleged Belzec electricution method, we might miss other possibilities. In lieu of more detailed information on this alleged "frying pan" method, especially a possible tie in at Belzec, I would recommend not immediately writing the allegation off, but merely state that the frying plan allegation is an unsubstantiated allegation, but may possibly represent an reference to an alleged execution method employed at Belzec.


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Post by Jeremy Chan » 15 Mar 2004 09:13

I've dismissed it anyway as pure rubbish. The allegations of more and more ridiculous execution methods by the far left is not funny anymore.

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Post by Penn44 » 15 Mar 2004 09:16

Colonel SteelFist wrote:I've dismissed it anyway as pure rubbish. The allegations of more and more ridiculous execution methods by the far left is not funny anymore.
Well, the fact that the far right executed them at all wasn't the funny part.


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