Lodz Ghetto transpots to?

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Horvath
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Lodz Ghetto transpots to?

Post by Horvath » 10 Mar 2004 14:44

If I'm not wrong,all the transports from Lodz Ghetto went straight to Chlemno,right?

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sylvieK4
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Post by sylvieK4 » 10 Mar 2004 15:12

Most did, until 1944. In summer of 1944, as the ghetto was liquidated, transports were sent to Auschwitz instead.

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sylvieK4
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Post by sylvieK4 » 10 Mar 2004 15:18

Here is a link to a site discussing deportation statistics from the Lodz Ghetto.

According to this site, deportations from Lodz to Chelmno were halted as of July 1944, and larger transports - designed to clear the ghetto - were routed to Auschwitz.

http://www.shtetlinks.jewishgen.org/lodz/statistics.htm

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giles120
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Post by giles120 » 10 Mar 2004 15:30

Horvath,

The liquidation of the Lodz Ghetto spanned mid January 1942 to the end of August 1944. During this time, just short of 80,000 Jews were sent to and murdered at Chelmno. On the 15th July 1944, transports to Chelmno were halted.

The roundups for the final liquidation of the Ghetto were held between 7-29th August 1944. The destination for 65-67,000 Lodz Jews was Auschwitz-Birkenau. Also during August, approx 500 Jews were sent to Ravensbruck and Sachsenhausen in Germany.

Several thousand Lodz Jews were also murdered in labour camps.

On January 20, 1945, 877 Jewish survivors in the Ghetto are liberated by the Russian army. It is estimated that up to 15,000 Lodz Jews survived the Holocaust.

So, although a very large number perished at Chelmno, Birkenau also murdered many thousands of Lodz Jews.

Thanks.

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Horvath
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Post by Horvath » 10 Mar 2004 16:45

And from Siaullai Ghetto? aka Shavel? where did the jews where transport too?? or they got killed the same way Vilnus' Jews were killed in some damn forest?

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Post by xcalibur » 10 Mar 2004 17:04

Horvath wrote:And from Siaullai Ghetto? aka Shavel? where did the jews where transport too?? or they got killed the same way Vilnus' Jews were killed in some damn forest?
IIRC, in the summer of 1944 they were sent to Stuthof.

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Post by michael mills » 11 Mar 2004 12:17

The liquidation of the Lodz Ghetto spanned mid January 1942 to the end of August 1944. During this time, just short of 80,000 Jews were sent to and murdered at Chelmno. On the 15th July 1944, transports to Chelmno were halted.
Claims have been made elsewhere on this forum that up to 300,000 Jews were sent to Chelmno.

Since the Lodz Ghetto contained the main concentration of Jews by far in the Reichsgau Wartheland, and since Chelmno was set up specifically to kill 100,000 Jews from that Reichsgau, if the number sent to Chelmno from Lodz Ghetto was 80,000, where did the other 220,000 come from? Or did they in fact not exist?

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giles120
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Post by giles120 » 16 Mar 2004 16:17

Once again another situation where historians cannot agree on figures. Estimations of those who died at Auschwitz vary hugely, and I remember reading Treblinka death stats vary between 700,000 and 1 million.

Here is the list of communities murdered at Chelmno:-
Belchatow, Bugaj (Nowiny Brdowskie), Dabie, Gabin (Gombin), Gostynin,
Grabow, Izbica Kujawska, Klodawa, Kolo, Kowale Panskie, Kozminek,
Krosniewice, Kutno, Leczyca, Lodz, Lubraniec, Lutomiersk, Pabianice,
Piotrkow Kujawski, Poddebice, Radziejow Kujawski, Sanniki, Sieradz,
Sompolno, Szadek, Turek, Warta, Wielun, Wloclawek, Zdunska Wola,
Zychlin.

Thanks.

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giles120
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Post by giles120 » 16 Mar 2004 17:26

One estimation of number murdered at Chelmno. I do not know the accuracy, but it arrives once more at the mid 300,000 figure.

The number of people killed at Chelmno could not be calculated from reliable data or railway records as the camp authorities destroyed all the evidence. The investigators were therefore obliged to confine themselves to the evidence given by witnesses concerning the number of transports sent to Chelmno.

In order to obtain as accurate an estimate as possible, witnesses were called from various points through which the transports passed (Lodz, Kolo, Powiercie, Zawvadki and Chelmno) or on individual observation and the counting based on the collective Railway tickets which they had seed (e. g. that of the woman Lange, a German booking-clerk at Kolo station), or finally individual observation and the counting of transports; or finally on what the members of the Sonderkommando told them about the number of victims.

All the witnesses agree that the average number of persons brought to the camp was at least 1000 a day(The Gendarmes used to say 'ein tag, ein tausend'). There were times when the number was larger, but 1000 may be accepted as a reliable average - exclusive of those who were brought in cars. These latter were not a negligible proportion, coming as they did from numerous small towns.

As to how many railway trains arrived during the whole time of the camp's existence, investigators found that the extermination activities at Chelmno lasted from December 8 1941, to April 9 1943. From April 1943, till the final "liquidation" of the camp in January 1945, strictly speaking the camp was not functioning, the total number of transports in this period ammounting only to 10, bringing approximately 10,000 people.

Considering only the time from December 8 1941, to April 7 1943, 480 days, we must allow for a break of two months in the spring of 1942, when transports were stopped, as well as for certain interruptions due to merely technical causes, which, it was found, did not exceed 70 days altogether (note 3). This gives (61 + 70), or 131-150 days lost. The remainder, 330 days of full activity, may be unhesitatingly accepted, and if 1000 victims were murdered a day, the total was 330,000. To this number must be added the 10,000 killed in 1944. The final total therefore is 340,000 men, women and children, from infants to old folk, killed at the extermination camp at Chelmno.

Thanks.

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Jews from Lodz

Post by Kapitan » 03 Apr 2006 22:16

Most of Jews from Lodz Germans murdered in Chelmno on the river Ner (during IIWW Chelmno was called by Germans Kulmhof).

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Post by nickterry » 10 Apr 2006 21:25

The numbers sent to Chelmno up to the end of 1942 are recorded in the well-known Korherr report:
4. Transportierung von Juden aus den
Ostprovinzen nach dem russischen
Osten: ............................ 1 449 692 "
Es wurden durchgeschleust
durch die Lager im General-
gouvernement..................... 1 274 166 Juden
durch die Lager im Warthegau..... 145 301 Juden
from http://www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/korherr_de.htm

I would suggest that the use of the plural 'die' is semantic camouflage. There was only one camp in the Warthegau, Chelmno.

One would ideally want a comprehensive chronology of transports, at least in the fashion that is available for the AR camps in Arad, but such a list is not easily available; probably there is a Polish publication which might give such a breakdown. Only by establishing how many communities were deported to Chelmno in the first part of 1943 would one be able to establish a higher death toll.

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Sergey Romanov
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Post by Sergey Romanov » 11 Apr 2006 07:43

JFYI, the number of male Jews selected as fit for labor in Auschwitz is contained in the same old Glaser's list:

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/glaser.htm

If you double that number, accounting for women, you will get the approximate number of Jews spared from immediate gassing. It seems that it is higher than estimated by historians previously.

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Sergey Romanov
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Post by Sergey Romanov » 11 Apr 2006 08:04

The total number of Lodz Jews spared from immediate gassing in Auschwitz can be estimated as about 31,000.

According to Strzelecki, 67,000 had been deported to Auschwitz, and 2/3 of them, i.e. 45,000, have been gassed.

http://www.auschwitz.org.pl/publikacje/ ... bmode=info

It seems that we have the same situation as with the Hungarian Jews, i.e. the previous estimates of the number of gassed people are somewhat exaggerated.

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Post by nickterry » 11 Apr 2006 10:39

Golzcewski (Dimensionen des Voelkermordes) calculates 264,196 Jews in the Warthegau as of the start of 1942.

25,397 died inside the Lodz ghetto, 1.1942-8.44 (see link above)

If 65,000 were deported to Auschwitz from Lodz after 8.44, this leaves 173,799 whose fate was most likely to die in Chelmno.

19,722 Reich Jews were deported to Lodz in 1941, they should be included in the 264,196 figure for the start of 1942.

Golczewski himself estimates 215,000 as a realistic death-toll for Chelmno. Not sure why he ends up with this discrepancy.

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Post by robota » 11 Apr 2006 10:49

from http://www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/korherr_de.htm

I would suggest that the use of the plural 'die' is semantic camouflage. There was only one camp in the Warthegau, Chelmno.
That seems to be a rash assumption. It is difficult to see who Korherr would be wishing to camouflage himself from?

The period of Nazi Germany simply teemed with transit camps that ring very few bells today. For example in the evacuations from Breslau in Silesia next to Warthegau they had at least three transit camps of Tomersdorf, Riebnig and Gruessau. Nor was that the all.

I quote from Davies and Moorhouse: Microcosm p393
Breslau's Jewish cemetery on Lohestrasse registered its last funeral on 12 August 1942. A year later, the SS Inspector of Statistics declared Silesia "Judenrein" -'cleansed of Jews'. At the same time, he noted that 50,570 stateless and foreign Jews were 'engaged in camp activity' in the Breslau region alone. He was not confused: in his mind, people 'engaged in camp activity' did not officially count as part of the population.
Given Liptmannstadt was such a center of industrialism I would be suprised if the only camp in the entire Warthegau was Chelmno. In SS eyes "Judenrein" did not mean no Jews. Jews working in camps did not count in population statistics.

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