Axis nations reluctance to participate in the holocaust ?

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Mostowka
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Axis nations reluctance to participate in the holocaust ?

Post by Mostowka » 27 Mar 2004 14:30

Before you read my question below I just hope that the forum will sharpen up as lately it has been heavily clogged with meaningless mud throwing and endless discussions back and forth with little or no historical relevance.

- - -

We all know that axis nations like Romania, Bulgaria, Italy, Hungary were ofted reluctant and resisted German attempts to deport their gypsy (Romania seems to be a exception regarding gypsies though) and jewish populations, perhaps only Slovakia under Tiso were more than happy to assist.

How come ? I have heard that Italian fascists held no grudge what so ever against the Jews - as long as they served the nation properly, and that anti-jewish legislation was first enacted after heavy German pressure.

How come ? What motivated the axis nations to resist helping the Germans with their step-by-step extermination policy ? Any answers are most helpful and also linnks to pages that explain thsi matter further.

Best regards,
Mostowka

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Marcus
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Post by Marcus » 27 Mar 2004 14:37

The short answer is that the other Axis nations didn't share the Nazi obsession about Jews, the racial aspects were not important to the leadership in the other countries.

/Marcus

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Re: Axis nations reluctance to participate in the holocaust

Post by redcoat » 27 Mar 2004 23:11

Mostowka wrote: How come ? I have heard that Italian fascists held no grudge what so ever against the Jews - as long as they served the nation properly, and that anti-jewish legislation was first enacted after heavy German pressure.
How come ? What motivated the axis nations to resist helping the Germans with their step-by-step extermination policy ? Any answers are most helpful and also linnks to pages that explain thsi matter further.
Best regards,
Mostowka
The Nazis used the jews as scape-goats to explain why Germany had lost WW1. The Italians were on the winning side in WW1, so the Italian fascists didn't need anyone to be a scape-goat, the jewish population in Italy was therefore never targeted by Italian fascist propaganda.

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Post by Andreas » 27 Mar 2004 23:43

What about the arrow-cross (Pfeilkreuzler) in Hungary? I seem to recall that they were quite strongly antisemitic?

This article has some info on it.

Also this one.
In light of the worsening military situation and facing threats (from Allied leaders) of war crimes trials, Horthy ordered a halt to the deportations on July 7, 1944. In August, he dismissed the Sztojay government and resumed efforts to reach an armistice, this time with the Soviet Union whose army was on Hungary's borders. Horthy had begun final negotiations with Soviet army commanders by mid-October, when the Germans sponsored a coup d'etat. They arrested Horthy and installed a new Hungarian government under Ferenc Szalasi, the leader of the fascist and radically antisemitic Arrow Cross party.

During the Szalasi regime, Arrow Cross gangs perpetrated a reign of arbitrary terror against the Jews of Budapest. Hundreds of Jews, both men and women, were violently murdered. Many others died from the brutal conditions of forced labor to which the Arrow Cross subjected them.

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Re: Axis nations reluctance to participate in the holocaust

Post by Witch-King of Angmar » 28 Mar 2004 20:03

Mostowka wrote:We all know that axis nations like Romania, Bulgaria, Italy, Hungary were ofted reluctant and resisted German attempts to deport their gypsy (Romania seems to be a exception regarding gypsies though) and jewish populations, perhaps only Slovakia under Tiso were more than happy to assist.

How come ? I have heard that Italian fascists held no grudge what so ever against the Jews - as long as they served the nation properly, and that anti-jewish legislation was first enacted after heavy German pressure.

How come ? What motivated the axis nations to resist helping the Germans with their step-by-step extermination policy ? Any answers are most helpful and also linnks to pages that explain thsi matter further.
Being in the Axis in the exact position of the above countries (Romania, Bulgaria, Italy, Hungary) meant to still be an independent and/or sovereign country, but under a permanent threat from the hegemonic power. For this reason, a politician of one of the above countries was directly interested to guard with the determination of a guard-dog the respective status of independence, to avoid to end up like Slovakia. Therefore, as long as the military alliance was of concern, he could send armies to the Soviet front, trade with the Germans(even in unfair conditions), but never allow the German mingling in the internal affairs of the respective state. For the government of the Reich, the deportation to Germany of various groups(Jews, Communists etc) was a good pretext to limit an Axis country's independence, by allowing German authorities to impose their will. So, any German request in this matter should be politely refused.

Side note: when persecution of Jews or other groups happened in one of the respective states, it was mostly for internal reasons not connected to the Reich's racial policy. Try Nizkor for actual details. Or ask Michael Mills :P

~The Witch-King of Angmar

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Post by David Thompson » 28 Mar 2004 20:18

Witch King -- You said:
when persecution of Jews or other groups happened in one of the respective states, it was mostly for internal reasons not connected to the Reich's racial policy. Try Nizkor for actual details. Or ask Michael Mills


You must not have read about the 1943 Klessheim conference, in which Hitler and von Ribbentrop tried to strong-arm the Hungarian regent, Miklos Horthy, into either murdering the Hungarian Jews himself, or deporting them so that the Nazis could do the job. Interested readers can avoid this error by reading this thread (in which Michael Mills' opinions are thoroughly set forth):

David Irving and the Klessheim Conference
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=17408

Von Ribbentrop's testimony during the IMT trial also belies your claim. See the discussion on the Klessheim thread and the transcript of von Ribbentrop's statements at:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=25259

I'm starting to understand now that your "hit and run" posts are designed to avoid having to explain/defend your suspiciously frequent factual errors and mis-statements.

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Post by Witch-King of Angmar » 28 Mar 2004 20:32

David Thompson wrote:Witch King -- You said:
when persecution of Jews or other groups happened in one of the respective states, it was mostly for internal reasons not connected to the Reich's racial policy. Try Nizkor for actual details. Or ask Michael Mills


You must not have read about the 1943 Klessheim conference, in which Hitler and von Ribbentrop tried to strong-arm the Hungarian regent, Miklos Horthy, into either murdering the Hungarian Jews himself, or deporting them so that the Nazis could do the job. Interested readers can avoid this error by reading this thread (in which Michael Mills' opinions are thoroughly set forth).
They tried. They tried the same thing with the Romanian government and the Finnish one. See my above post.
David Thompson, quoting Admiral Horthy's Memoirs, wrote:Hitler declared that the Hungarian troops had fought badly during the previous winter offensive, to which I replied that the best of troops cannot put up a good show against an enemy superior in number and arms; that the Germans had promised us armoured vehicles and guns but had not supplied them; and that the heavy losses of our troops were the best testimony to the strength of their morale. Then Hitler went on to lecture me on the Jewish question, shouting that "the Jews must either be exterminated or put in concentration camps". I saw no reason why we should capitulate to Hitler and change our views on this subject, especially as in October of the previous year we had introduced a special levy on Jewish capital as a 'war contribution' and had also restricted the Jewish tenure of land. Although these were measures that had been taken by the Kállay Government, Hitler proceeded to vilify Kállay, declaring that he was preparing a Hungarian defection. He demanded that Kállay be dismissed from the Premiership. I refused categorically to yield on that point and asked Hitler to refrain from interfering with my official functions. A Prime Minister, and above all a Chief of State, must be at liberty to gain information of the position and views of his opponents by all the means at his disposal.
~The Witch-King of Angmar

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Post by David Thompson » 28 Mar 2004 21:16

Witch-King -- While I think the consensus of opinion among historians is that your statement ("when persecution of Jews or other groups happened in one of the respective states, it was mostly for internal reasons not connected to the Reich's racial policy") is accurate as to Croatia, Slovakia and Romania, as I recall the Nazi Foreign Office also put very heavy pressure on France and the RSI government in northern Italy to deport their Jews, and were ultimately successful. They were much less successful in Bulgaria, though it wasn't for lack of trying.

As for Admiral Horthy and Hungary, didn't Hitler have Horthy arrested in 1944 and replaced by Arrow Cross puppets when he, among other reasons, refused to follow Hitler and von Ribbentrop's "suggestions?"

Finland of course, to the credit of that nation, refused to have anything to do with Nazi racial policies.

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Post by Dan » 28 Mar 2004 22:00

David, aren't you presupposing German interest in killing Jews as opposed to using them as slave labor? Admittedly a difference perhaps of nuance, but a difference all the same. I think the concern was for industrial cannon fodder rather than an overwhelming obsession to destroy the Jewish race.

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Post by Andreas » 28 Mar 2004 22:04

What is the difference?

Those unfit to work were killed immediately, those fit to work were killed by working them under inhumane conditions. It worked just as well as a bullet in the neck, but the SS got some productive use out of their victims.

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Post by Apocalypse_Now » 28 Mar 2004 22:45

I think the concern was for industrial cannon fodder rather than an overwhelming obsession to destroy the Jewish race
Really? What about the Hungarian Jew's? :roll:

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Post by Dan » 28 Mar 2004 22:51

Heinz VanNoon wrote:
I think the concern was for industrial cannon fodder rather than an overwhelming obsession to destroy the Jewish race
Really? What about the Hungarian Jew'? :roll:
Is there a hidden meaning in that post?

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Post by Apocalypse_Now » 28 Mar 2004 23:16

Is there a hidden meaning in that post?
No, if you look at the fate of the Hungarian Jew's, one would think the use of them as industrial cannon fodder is absurd.

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Post by David Thompson » 28 Mar 2004 23:42

Dan -- When you said:
David, aren't you presupposing German interest in killing Jews as opposed to using them as slave labor? Admittedly a difference perhaps of nuance, but a difference all the same. I think the concern was for industrial cannon fodder rather than an overwhelming obsession to destroy the Jewish race.
are you talking about the Hitler-Horthy exchanges about the Hungarian Jews at the Klessheim conference in 1943, or about the pressure the German Foreign Office generally put on all their allies to deport their Jewish citizens into Nazi custody?

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Post by Dan » 29 Mar 2004 01:09

Heinz VanNoon wrote:
Is there a hidden meaning in that post?
No, if you look at the fate of the Hungarian Jew's, one would think the use of them as industrial cannon fodder is absurd.
What happened to them?

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