Slovene soldiers in German armed service in WW2

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Oberst Mihael
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Slovene soldiers in German armed service in WW2

#1

Post by Oberst Mihael » 14 Jul 2002, 01:09

Hi, anyone here could tell me an approximate number of Slovenes (drafted or volunteers) on the Russian Front, probably from 1943 onwards. Also, which division had the biggest percentage of Slovenes (I know Greif division had many men from the Styria region) and were there any serving the Waffen SS?

Were there any on the Western Front?

Now this is also very important; I heard somewhere (ummm not entirely sure where but it is a pretty reliable source, I know) that there were Slovene men fighting for the Wehrmacht at Monte Cassino who were supposed to have done one mean defending job. Now I've inquired around but still have no answer; were there any, if so, how many and which units, were they drafted, etc.


Thank you very much

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Benoit Douville
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#2

Post by Benoit Douville » 15 Jul 2002, 23:44

Maybe this will help you:

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/5814/

Regards


Octavianus
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Slovenes in Wehrmacht & Waffen-SS

#3

Post by Octavianus » 16 Jul 2002, 01:13

Ave Oberst Michael and Benoit,

You have choosen a very interesting, but unfortunately also very much obscure topic, most of researchers pay little attention ot it. I have to confess that very little has been said (or written) about Lorenians, Alsacians, Slovenes or Luxemburgers in German armed forces, although they certainly deserve a more significant memorial in the history of World War II. Unofrtunately it is so, that we "chit-chat" most of the time about "panzers" and "Waffen-SS", what is good, but still... To exaggerate too much is also not good.

I will give you a here a short answer to your inquiry:

>Hi, anyone here could tell me an approximate number of >Slovenes

Some 100,000 Slovenes have been drafted into German Armed Forces, either this be Wehrmacht, Waffen-SS, Kriegsmarine, Luftwaffe with Flak-Artillerie, Volkssturm and Wehrmannschaft, a regiment-sized special police formation, formed in Untersteiermark in early 1942 to fight against the partisans. Some 24,000 Slovenes (some sources are talking about a number around 15,000) are believed to be killed or missing. That's a large percentage if you ask me.

>(drafted or volunteers)

Majority of them were drafted, but there were also a few volunteers (some 800) who volunteered into Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS before Germany's attack on Kingdom of Yugoslavia in April 1941.

>on the Russian Front, probably from 1943 onwards. Also, which >division had the biggest percentage of Slovenes (I know Greif >division had many men from the Styria region) and

Uh, that's hard to answer. Unfortunately I cannot give you a detailed answer on this question, but also otherwise I think you will find it very difficult to establish the exact number, since they were spreaded among various units.
It sometimes even happened that only one Slovene soldier found himself alone in the whole division.

During the training process, most Slovenes served in the following units:

* 2. Ausbildungs-Battalion/137. Gebirgs-Jäger Regiment in Kufstein (Austria)

* 1. Ausbildungs-Battalion/137. Reserve-Gebirgs-Jäger Regiment in Salzburg (Austria)

* 1. Ausbildungs-Battalion/139. Gebirgs-Jäger Regiment in Klagenfurt (Austria)

* 1. Ausbildungs-Battalion/136. Reserve-Gebirgs-Jäger Regiment in Innsbruck (Austria)

* 48. Reserve-Panzerjäger-Abteilung in Cilli (Untersteiermark)

* 1. Ausbildungs-Battalion/138. Reserve-Gebirgs-Jäger Regiment in Bruck an Mur (Austria)

* 83. Gebirgs-Ausbildungs-Pionier-Battalion in Schwaz (Austria)

and so one...

>were there any serving the Waffen SS?

Yes, there were Slovenes serving in Waffen-SS units. I know a case of at least one Slovene SS-Mann who allegedly fought in the Battle of Berlin in May 1945.

>Were there any on the Western Front?

Yes. Slovenes fought on the Western Front, Eastern Front, Balkan, Italien, Norwegen (Kirkenes Front) and even in North Africa (Tunis).

>Now this is also very important; I heard somewhere (ummm not >entirely sure where but it is a pretty reliable source, I know) that >there were Slovene men fighting for the Wehrmacht at Monte >Cassino who were supposed to have done one mean defending
>job.

Now, I would say that anyone who was at Monte Cassino set up a helluva good defence against the Allies:-) I don't know any testimonials about individuals-Slovenes who distinguished there, but yes, the Slovene soldiers died there as well. I recall a story about a Slovene family who was tracking down the grave of their son, only to find it twenty years after the war at - MONTE CASSINO.

I hope my answer was in any help to you.

Gratia,

Octavianus

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Benoit Douville
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#4

Post by Benoit Douville » 16 Jul 2002, 01:41

Octavinius,

Great post with great info. I have to agree that few historians and researchers pay attention to Slovenia and what happened with this country during World War II and it's indeed a very interesting and fascinating subject.

I am not surprised to see that a Slovenes was fighting in the Battle of Berlin because the majority of the Waffen SS defending the city in the late stage of the War were from different country.

We should not forget that many of the Slovenes were 16 to 19 year old! when they had to enlist in the German Army and suffered the war on the Eastern Front.

After World War I many Slovenes came under Italian rule and military service was immediately introduced. When World War II started hundreds of Slovenes were called up in the Italian Army.

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Momo
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#5

Post by Momo » 16 Jul 2002, 02:49

Tony Munzo of Axis Europa wrote a great book about Slovenia in WW II, Slovenian Axis Forces in World War II, 1941-1945. I don't have it out but it does deal with Slovens under German and Italian command.
Also the Italian book, L' occupazione italiana della slovenia 1941-43 is very good. I deals with the many anti-Partisan opperations, and gives some details on the anti-Partisan units. What also took me was the fact it had details on the Sloven Cetnik movement.

Momo

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Oberst Mihael
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#6

Post by Oberst Mihael » 16 Jul 2002, 14:44

Wow, thanks a lot guys! At least now I know something, they really don't teach us this stuff at school (in my opinion we are waaaay too obsessed with partisans here).

Cheers

EDIT: Slovenes from the Styria Region were awarded 50 Iron Crosses 1st Class and 1000 Iron Crosses, 2nd Class by 1944.

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Slovenes in Wehrmacht & Waffen-SS

#7

Post by Octavianus » 16 Jul 2002, 17:06

Ave amici,

>Great post with great info.

Thanks!

>I have to agree that few historians and researchers pay >attention to Slovenia and what happened with this country >during World War II and it's indeed a very interesting and >fascinating subject.

Indeed. I would for example really like to read one day a great book about Slovene and Luxemberg recruits in German Armed forces. Both countries are very much neglected in WWII histography, and especially Slowenien, being small as it is, had, that is for WWII historians, a very rich, but also very sad, history. I have never experienced in my life such a small nation, which had contributed its menpower to so many various military formations during WWII.

>We should not forget that many of the Slovenes were 16 to >19 year old! when they had to enlist in the German Army >and suffered the war on the Eastern Front.

Yes, many of them were still young, and many did not return back to home. I reckon the loss of so many young men must have had a huge impact on Slovene population, being so small etc...

>After World War I many Slovenes came under Italian rule >and military service was immediately introduced. When >World War II started hundreds of Slovenes were called up >in the Italian Army.

Indeed. Thanks for reminding me. That's another obscure topic, very few people know of it. Some 600,000 Slovenes and Croats from Istria were swallowed after the World war One into the Italian state, and fought later in Italian armed forces in Abyssinia 1934-1935 respectively World War II (Soviet Union, Balkan, France, Tunis, North Africa, East Africa) in almost each branch of the armed forces either this be the Army, Navy or Air Force. Tell me, just how many people know today that one of Italy's leading air aces and national heroes during World War II has been in fact a descendant of Slovene or Croatian family (there hasn't been established exactly his exact nationality) from Istria?

In addition, several thousand men fought in the Royal Hungarian Army as well. I think the father of a current Slovene president was actually killed, while he was serving as a private in one of Hungary's security divisions in Ukraine in 1944.

>Tony Munzo of Axis Europa wrote a great book about >Slovenia in WW II, Slovenian Axis Forces in World War II, >1941-1945. I don't have it out but it does deal with Slovens >under German and Italian command.

Antonio Munoz's book is a great, but unfortunately also the only English source that deals with this topic. The book, as the title already suggests, is entirely dedicated to Slovene axis formations in Slovenia itself, like for example you'll find there some great info, and especialyl the photos of Slowenisches Landwehr (Slovensko Domobranstvo), the Village Guard and also a few notes about Slovene Chetnik movement; but very little about Slovenes who served in German, Italian or Hungarian armies. However, you will be able to find a whole section dedicated to the Wehrmannschaft-Regiment "Untersteiermark" with some really great photos.

>Also the Italian book, L' occupazione italiana della slovenia >1941-43 is very good. I deals with the many anti-Partisan >opperations, and gives some details on the anti-Partisan >units. What also took me was the fact it had details on the >Sloven Cetnik movement.

I think you referr here to Mario Cuzzi's book, don't you? Yes, it sure is a great source for betetr knowing the Italian occupation system in Slovenia respetively better known in those times as Provincia di Lubiana. However, this book contains quite a bit mistakes, especially in the correct spelling of local names; I for example am still trying to locate where are Sv. Barbara, Grape and Rezice, three smaller hamlets near Rakek, that were allegedly shelled by Yugoslav artillery on 7th April 1941. Also in order to "de-code" other local names, you need a lot of stamina and above all a lot of imagination. :D

I also think that it is aunacceptable that the author referr to the partisans as "guerilli Slavi". Don't know, but if he has decided to write a book about this thematic, he could at leats look on a map to find out that the partisans there were not Czechs, Slovaks, Poles, Russians, Serbs, Ukrainians (who are also descendant of Slavic tribes), but Slovenes and Croats. And if this is still to much, he could always use the Italian word - partigiani.
By his definition we should appeal to the French partisans as Romanic partisans???

>Slovenes from the Styria Region were awarded 50 Iron >Crosses 1st Class and 1000 Iron Crosses, 2nd Class by >1944.

Thanks for posting this info. May I ask you from which source did you get this? Many Slovenes received various German decorations and badges, some even being promoted to NCO ranks, although very few, as the official secret decree by Steirischer Heimatbund prohibited the promotions of recruits from Krain and Untersteiermark to a rank which would be highter than Gefreiter. I think the Slovenes can even boast with one Ritterkreuzträger from Oberkrain or Untersteiermark, if I am not mistaken.

Gratia,

Octavianus

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Oberst Mihael
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#8

Post by Oberst Mihael » 16 Jul 2002, 18:22

I got the info on the Iron Crosses from the booklet Republika Slovenia: Army Insignia & Decorations 1918-1992 by Marian Furlan.

The only decorated Slovene hero of the Wehrmacht that I know was Hugo Primozic (Oak Leaves, Ritterkreuz, Iron Cross...), but I am sure there were plenty more. One other man is Odilo Globocnik, but I sort of don't consider him to be much of a hero (I think he had something to do with a concentration camp in Italy).
Last edited by Oberst Mihael on 16 Jul 2002, 18:28, edited 1 time in total.

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#9

Post by MaPen » 16 Jul 2002, 18:27

Though with Slovenian sounding name Odilo Globocnik was of Croat-Austrian descent therefore he doesn't count.

best

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#10

Post by Oberst Mihael » 16 Jul 2002, 18:29

My apologies. :oops:

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Slovenes in Wehrmacht & Waffen-SS

#11

Post by Octavianus » 17 Jul 2002, 00:20

Ave Oberst Michael & MaPen,

>I got the info on the Iron Crosses from the booklet Republika >Slovenia: Army Insignia & Decorations 1918-1992 by Marian >Furlan.

Very interesting. Does your bookklet provide any further information about Slovenes who received German decorations? Maybe also any words about Slovenes who were decorated in Italian or Hungarian Army?

>The only decorated Slovene hero of the Wehrmacht that I know >was Hugo Primozic (Oak Leaves, Ritterkreuz, Iron Cross...),

Actually he survived the war and died in 1995 in Fulda, I think.

>but I am sure there were plenty more. One other man is Odilo >Globocnik, but I sort of don't consider him to be much of a hero (I >think he had something to do with a concentration camp in Italy).

The Butcher of Poland they called it. He was the COG of the "Aktion Reinhardt".

>Though with Slovenian sounding name Odilo Globocnik was of >Croat-Austrian descent therefore he doesn't count.

Ah, so? May I ask you on what source do you base this statement of yours?
As far as I know, the father of Odilo Globocnik was a former k.u.k military officer of Slovene descent, who was born to a Slovene family in Oberkrain, in a small village near the city, which is nowdays known as Trzic (same as Hugo Primozitsch :D ).
His mother was of German descent, originating from a German family that was living in Krain.

I had somewhere more detailed info about his father and mother. Odilo was born in Triest, where his father was serving as Hauptmann (Captain). He most certainly was NOT of Croatian descent, confirmed by Slovene's leading expert in this subject, Herr Marijan F. Kranjc, former Generalmajor and now a researcher of Slovene military history. According to my friend there were three generals of Slovene descent in the German armed forces, two Wehrmacht and one Waffen-SS.

Gratia,

Octavianus

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#12

Post by Oberst Mihael » 17 Jul 2002, 00:42

That's all the booklet has. :(

Could you name the three Slovene generals? I would be more than interested!!

Thank you

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#13

Post by Mark V. » 17 Jul 2002, 13:29

Octavianus great post as always, I would add just another think that you've probably forgot. A lot of Slovenians unfortunately came (or rather remained) under Austrian rule after World War I. From what I've heard quite a large number of them were called up in the German Army and if I remember correctly a lot of them fell in Stalingrad. I am sure you have more information about them.


Globocnik family originated as Octavianus said from Neumarktl (Trzic), but they never considered themselves as Slovenes. According to some sources »Globus« (Odilo's nickname, forgot why he got it) even took part in Kärntner Abwehr and he was supposed to receive Kärntner Kreuz for battles againts Slovenes at Bleiburg. And also he certainly didn't show any mercy to Slovene and Italian partisans and civilians when he was transfered to Adriatisches Küstenland.

Here is a little background on the family Odilo Globocnik's family:
Josef Globotschnig-a doctor
!
Rochus Globotschnig-a doctor in Trzic, who was also took part as doctor in wars againts Napoleon
!
Franz Johann Globotschnig (born 1825)-proffesor at Realgymnasium in Ljubljana.
!
Father: Franz Globocnik (born 1870)
At first he was an active officer reaching the rank of Rittmeister in World War I., later (thanks to her wife's parents) becomes officer in reserve and then postal worker.
Mother:Anna Petschinka (also Pecsinka)- family originated from Werschetz in Banat.
!
Odilo Globocnik (I think he also had two sister, but I am not certain)

P.S. I think I've found another Slovene Knight's Cross holder.

Mark

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#14

Post by MaPen » 17 Jul 2002, 19:40

Mark & Octavianus,

thanks for the most detailed info on Globocnik. Now, that comes as a real surprise, Globocnik being of Slovene descent. Although, looking at his mother's name, he could still be a Croat (or Hungarian?), I guess.

Octavianus, the base of my statement are several online sources such as http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/ ... raptis.htm, http://www.istrianet.org/istria/history ... ro-eng.htm or http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/g/ ... cnik.odilo. Looks like they are all wrong. :?

Mark, obviously you know a lot about his family. My I ask you about the source? I'm really interested in this subject and would like to do some research. Thanx in advance.
:D
regards

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#15

Post by Mark V. » 18 Jul 2002, 15:27

Hi MaPen!

Well, I am not that interested in Odilo Globocnik, but I recently came upon a very interesting book about him.
Siegfried J. Pucher (with foreword by Karl Stuhlpfarrer): »…in der Bewegung führend tätig«: Odilo Globoènik-Kämpfer für den »Anschluß«, Volstrecker des Holocaust
ISBN 3-85435-278-6
Drava 1997, Klagenfurt

As I said his mother (Anna Petschinka) was from Werschetz (today Vršac) in Banat (eastern Vojvodina, Serbia), so I guess she was more probably of Serbian or Hungarian descent rather than Croatian.

Mark

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