War crimes in western desert campaign

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wright61
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War crimes in western desert campaign

#1

Post by wright61 » 02 Apr 2004, 21:03

are there any records of war crimes commited in this campaign

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DrG
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#2

Post by DrG » 02 Apr 2004, 21:17

The Maori had the "bad habit" (to use an euphemism) of killing prisoners.
As written by the historian Enrico Cernuschi in the Feldgrau forum:
When the Brigadier Clifton, commander of the 6th NZ Brigade, was taken prisionier by the Italian paratroopers of the 187° Reggimento Folgore on 4th Sept 1942 he was questioned by Rommel about the bad fame of his troops regarding their habit to kill prisoniers and wounded. The answer was: "Too many goddamed Maori!" asking, anyway, the grace to be sent as a POW in Germany and not in Italy, as he was fearing a trial; this permission was not granted and so he escaped a total of nine times, the last, on 1944, succesfully (Paolo Caccia Dominioni, El Alamein 1933- 1962, there is an English translation too).
Another war crime happened at the beginning of Operation Agreement (13-14 Sept. 1942): in the late afternoon of 13 Sept. the patrol led by capt. David Lloyd Owen reached the proximity of Tobruk and captured 7 Italian soldiers that were collecting spare parts from a "cemetery" of vehicles in El Duda (20 km east of Tobruk). Since the mission of the LRDG was secret and they didn't know what to do with the POWs, at 9 pm, after having asked instructions to their command via radio but without being replyed, the Britons murdered them. But 2 of them, Esposito and Serafini (badly wounded), survived and were able to report this crime to the Italian command of the airport of El Adem.
(source: Storia Militare n.79, aprile 2000)


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#3

Post by David Thompson » 02 Apr 2004, 21:33

For interested readers -- DrG is referring to New Zealand Brigadier George Clifton (1898-?). A brief recapitulation of his career may be found on Steen Ammentorp's most useful site "The Generals of WWII" at:

http://www.generals.dk/id/7095.html
Last edited by David Thompson on 03 Apr 2004, 03:59, edited 1 time in total.

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#4

Post by Englander » 03 Apr 2004, 01:05

I won't mention the nationality,because I can't source the information. A company of men penetrated a German field hospital,and bayoneted wounded Germans in their sick beds.Can anyone corroborate this incident?

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#5

Post by alf » 03 Apr 2004, 01:46

I won't mention the nationality,because I can't source the information. A company of men penetrated a German field hospital,and bayoneted wounded Germans in their sick beds.Can anyone corroborate this incident?

Its been covered in this thread and is largely a myth

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=36510

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#6

Post by John W » 03 Apr 2004, 02:23

Englander wrote:I won't mention the nationality,because I can't source the information. A company of men penetrated a German field hospital,and bayoneted wounded Germans in their sick beds.Can anyone corroborate this incident?
Yes, as alf has pointed out, that threqad lists the incident at Minqar-quaim. It's probably a case of confusing a few ambulances/medical personnel with a field hospital. :?

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#7

Post by fighting_scars » 03 Apr 2004, 07:05

Tis ironic in that sense that Rommel held the New Zealanders in high regard, once commenting that they were the best allied troops in Africa.

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#8

Post by DrG » 05 Apr 2004, 14:34

The Italian govern published two books about the British occupation of Cyrenaica at the beginning of 1941:
"56 giorni di 'civiltà' inglese a Bengasi" by Giovanni Scalfaro, Casa Editrice Pinciana, Roma, 1941
"Che cosa hanno fatto gli inglesi in Cirenaica", prefation by the Minister of Popular Culture Alessandro Pavolini, Ministero della Cultura Popolare, Roma, July 1941.
Of course those books are more or less only propaganda, but among the exagerations there is an interesting document: it's the letter written by the nurse of the Italian Red Cross Caterina Cortesani. This woman was in Bengasi (Benghazi) during the British occupation of 1941, and then made this report to the Central Committee of the Italian Red Cross on 10 May 1941.
The crimes that she witnessed are:
- a civilian was killed by drunken Australian soldiers at Berka
- an Italian POW, underlieutnant M. (the full surname isn't told), was killed in the Torelli barracks by the machine gun of a British soldier
- 2 times Mrs. Cortesani had to cure POWs wounded by the pistols of their British guards because they were asking food or water
(the letter is published in "Afrika Korps" by Ernesto Zucconi, Ritter ed.)

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#9

Post by David Thompson » 24 Apr 2004, 20:45

[A post by panzertruppe2001 which did not add to the thread was deleted by the moderator -- DT]

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#10

Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 30 Apr 2004, 02:15

About the patrol of capt.David lloyd ,is that really what we call a war crime ? I mean ,technically ,yes .Now the officer had an important mission to do .The prisonners –who were not supposed to be there – can endanger the success of the mission ...what must to do the officer ? I think that the answer is clear . I would do the same . And I would surely feel pretty bad about it ,but war is war . Now it wasn’t done with sadism or hate . But the following are real war crimes , and were perpetred by the allies ,too...

One war crime was committed by a french gaullist pilot in the north african sky when ,flying his british aircraft ,he shot down an italian ambulance airplane . Captured later by the italians ,they wanted to trial him and shoot him ,but Mussolini oponed himself .The Duce also did the same for the french gaullist troops of general Koenig fighting at Bir-Hakeim .Some were made prisonners by the italians and according to the rules of war ,since the legal french government (the one of Vichy ,at this time) had agreed an armistice with Germany and Italy ,they could have been shot .Mussolini asked :”Were these men uniformed ? Were they fighting under the french banner ? Yes ? So they fought like soldiers and we will treat them like soldiers POWs.”
Again ,in the case of Rene Guenon ,despites the fact that he had perpetred a proved war crime ,Mussolini spared his life and he was given back to the french legal authorities of Vichy . In Vichy ,where he was transported ,Guenon talked lot of shit about De Gaulle and London ,but that’s another story .... I think ,in all ,he was a despictable man .

In january 1943 in Tunisia was formed a “Phalange Africaine” a vichyst unit to defend the french empire against the anglo-american invasion . This unit ,( with a strenght about 250 men ,french uniform ,german coat and german helmet ,german and french weapons- under command of captain Dupuis who will won the EkII in Tunisia ,later to be an Hauptsturmfuehrer within the Charlemagne division . The unit was also called “LVF of Tunisia”.) entered battle as “Franconia Kompanie” of the 2nd battalion of the 754th Panzergrenadierregiment of the 334th Panzergrenadierdivision , 5th Panzerarmee of general Von Arnim , and saw combat action at Klouia by April 9th 1943 against the british 78th infantry division . During the night of 15th and 16th April a patrol of 9 men chokes with a new-zelander patrol killing 7 new-zelanders and wounding 3 others ones ...as a personal revenge ,maybe ,few time after that ,a french position of the Phalange ‘s First Platoon was attacked by the new-zelanders .The french sergeant ,comander of the post was wounded and token prisonner . His head will be severed with an axe by a new-zelander .

Always about Tunisia ,the “liberation” of Tunis was marked by some dishonorable deeds from the US Army (rapes ) and gaullists ( purges). By may 20th 1943 a great parade happened in the streets of Tunis with desfilees of the french army of Africa (the one who joined the allies some months ago ) ,the US army ,the britishs and the french gaullist troops (which prefered to desfile within the british army then within the french army) .... now let’s see what happened later ,according to the testimony of a witness ,Jean Eyrin :

“ After the parade ,if the british units comebacked to their barracks ,it wasn’t the case of hundreds of american soldiers who went on leave and drank heavily in the many bars of the city . Soon ,some of them ,completely drunks assaulted ladies in the streets , at last all the ones who didn’t have time to seek a refuge in a friendly house . Others destroyed the doors of some houses were ,from the balcony ,a girl had made an innocent gest of sympathy toward them . Brawlfights happened , many drunks GIs were sleeping on the stairs of the cathedral , on their vomit . (...) The whole city of Tunis was disgusted .”
And further :
“ As soon as the germans had left Tunis , some groups of “resistants” – who had done nothing during the hostilities – pursued some supposed “collaborators” (...) To feed those tribunals of “exception” (which were more the rules than exception) ,some WW1 veterans were jailed up to 20 years because they had belonged to the “Legion Francaise des Combattants”( a non-armed veteran petainist organization from which emerged the SOL and later the Milice Francaise) (...) such iniquities indignied most of the frenchmen of Tunisia were those WW1 survivers were known and respected .Once a soldier who had fought against the germans comebacked to Tunis and found that his father had been jailed (...)
The repression falen also on the residents italian civilians ,perfectly integrated ,who were guilties to have spoken with soldiers of the italian army some of them were “administratively placed under protective custody “ for shorter or longer times .it was scandalous .” (Source : souvenirs of Jean Eyrin ,in “Le marechal” N.188, 1997)

About the gaullist represion in french north africa ,it was general de Montsabert who received an order from the gaullist Committee of Liberation from Algiers ,ordering him to arrest a captain Carre because this one had belonged to the Legion des Combattants .... the pissed-off answer of Montsabert was dramatic : “ I won’t obey this order . Captain Carre died for France yesterday in action against the german enemy .”

By the way ,I have a suggestion : Why not to open a sticky topic about allies units which perpetred war crimes ,as it was done for the Waffen-SS and Polizei units . I guess that this topic would be soon fullfiled with lots of evidences .

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#11

Post by xcalibur » 30 Apr 2004, 02:42

Is a sticky about "Allied Units Implicated in Warcrimes".

Second sticky after "Announcements".

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#12

Post by WalterS » 30 Apr 2004, 03:50

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:
But the following are real war crimes , and were perpetred by the allies ,too...
“ After the parade ,if the british units comebacked to their barracks ,it wasn’t the case of hundreds of american soldiers who went on leave and drank heavily in the many bars of the city . Soon ,some of them ,completely drunks assaulted ladies in the streets , at last all the ones who didn’t have time to seek a refuge in a friendly house . Others destroyed the doors of some houses were ,from the balcony ,a girl had made an innocent gest of sympathy toward them . Brawlfights happened , many drunks GIs were sleeping on the stairs of the cathedral , on their vomit . (...) The whole city of Tunis was disgusted .”

Once again Ostuf Charlemagne conclusively demonstrates that he either doesn't know what a war crime is, or ignores reality in an effort to further his Nazi apologia agenda. Soldiers getting drunk in a victory celebration is NOT a war crime. If said drunken soldiers behave badly toward civilians, they are guilty of criminal conduct, but not war crimes. I wish that Ostuf would read the excellent definitions of war crimes posted by Mr David Thompson on this forum before he goes off on one of his tangents.

But since he has expressed such concern for civilians, I am sure that he will be equally outraged at this:

Units of the Waffen SS and Einsatzgruppen operating directly under the SS main office were used to carry out these plans. These units were also involved in the widespread murder and ill-treatment of the civilian population of occupied territories Under the guise of combating partisan units, units of the SS exterminated Jews and people deemed politically undesirable by the SS, and their reports record the execution of enormous numbers of persons.

The fact is that Ostuf Charlemagne did not substantiate any of the claims he made, and most, even if substantiated, do not constitute war crimes.

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#13

Post by xcalibur » 30 Apr 2004, 05:34

WalterS wrote:Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:
But the following are real war crimes , and were perpetred by the allies ,too...
? After the parade ,if the british units comebacked to their barracks ,it wasn?t the case of hundreds of american soldiers who went on leave and drank heavily in the many bars of the city . Soon ,some of them ,completely drunks assaulted ladies in the streets , at last all the ones who didn?t have time to seek a refuge in a friendly house . Others destroyed the doors of some houses were ,from the balcony ,a girl had made an innocent gest of sympathy toward them . Brawlfights happened , many drunks GIs were sleeping on the stairs of the cathedral , on their vomit . (...) The whole city of Tunis was disgusted .?

Once again Ostuf Charlemagne conclusively demonstrates that he either doesn't know what a war crime is, or ignores reality in an effort to further his Nazi apologia agenda. Soldiers getting drunk in a victory celebration is NOT a war crime. If said drunken soldiers behave badly toward civilians, they are guilty of criminal conduct, but not war crimes. I wish that Ostuf would read the excellent definitions of war crimes posted by Mr David Thompson on this forum before he goes off on one of his tangents.

But since he has expressed such concern for civilians, I am sure that he will be equally outraged at this:

Units of the Waffen SS and Einsatzgruppen operating directly under the SS main office were used to carry out these plans. These units were also involved in the widespread murder and ill-treatment of the civilian population of occupied territories Under the guise of combating partisan units, units of the SS exterminated Jews and people deemed politically undesirable by the SS, and their reports record the execution of enormous numbers of persons.

The fact is that Ostuf Charlemagne did not substantiate any of the claims he made, and most, even if substantiated, do not constitute war crimes.

Obviously Ostuf has never been to N'awlins for Mardis Gras...

But I digress... Let's not forget Eisenhower's notorious "Emetic Order" issued in 1942. Under this dastardly order, which may have emanated from Chief of Staff Marshall, all Allied troops were ordered to vomit on the town in which they found themselves. Those who couldn't achieve the requisite nausea naturally were given emetics (in what was one of the most egregious examples of illegal medical experimentation theretofore known to medical science). Typical of the Allied hypocrisy, no charges were brought in this most egregious of crimes.

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#14

Post by DrG » 30 Apr 2004, 14:06

Again ,in the case of Rene Guenon ,despites the fact that he had perpetred a proved war crime ,Mussolini spared his life and he was given back to the french legal authorities of Vichy . In Vichy ,where he was transported ,Guenon talked lot of shit about De Gaulle and London ,but that’s another story .... I think ,in all ,he was a despictable man .
Mhm, this name isn't new for me. Is he that René Guénon, the freemason and traditionalist philosopher who then converted to Islam? :?

I can add a couple of crimes (use of enemy uniforms) made by the Allies:
- at least a platoon of a Jew company (formed by Jews of Italian origin who had emigrated by their own in Palestine during the Twenties and the Thirties) was used by the British, in Italian uniforms of the Catanzaro Division, in Jan. 1941 at Bardia and then in Tobruk some weeks later. This trick was tried again at Keren (Erithrea) in Feb. 1941 but this time the disguised men were discovered and summarly executed.
- during operation Agreement (a large commando attack on Toburk) in Sept. 1942, the British used again Jews dressed with enemy uniforms. This time they were 20 German Jews of the SIG (Special Interrogation Gruop; their usual duty, as told by the name of their unit, was of interrogating German POWs thanks to their perfcet knowledge of the language) who belonged to the detachment of the Force B commanded by capt. John Haselden. Those Jews pretended to be Germans of the Afrika Korps escorting some dozens of British POWs to Tobruk; the trick worked at the first road-block but at the second they were discovered by the men of the Feldgerndarmerie, who were promptly stabbed. The members of the SIG were then captured, but it seems they weren't executed (maybe they had changed the uniform before being captured?).

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#15

Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 01 May 2004, 01:27

DRG : Yep, it is the same Rene Guenon .....

Xcalibur , your message is childish ,as usual .

WalterS : Ok ,rapes were not war crimes ,but common crimes .Agree .But they still happened ...of course to denounce them is to spread "Nazi " propaganda ,which leads to some commentaries :

1. "Nazi" don't means anything .Next time use the correct word ,which is National-Socialist ...it seems you are always in need of a good dictionnary ,don't you ?

2 . Einsatzgruppen are off-topic .Stays on topic (the word "topic" may be find in any good dictionnary ,if it may help you .) or either :
a- Open a new one .
b- Go to the topic Einsatzgruppen of about 8 months ago where you will find some of my posts ,so you will have a better understanding of the facts . I suggest you to use the motor...if you knows how it works .

3. Your message is so obviously biased that I think that you may be a neo-national-socialist wraiting stupidities just to makes look silly the allies -supporters of this forum (for instance when you post a statement without any source..)
Keep up the good work !

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