Crimes of the Yugoslav Partisans

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
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Allen Milcic
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Post by Allen Milcic » 01 Apr 2004 00:05

Charlemagne:

I'm no fan of Tito and the Yugo-Partizans, but I wonder where you are getting the information that "60% if not more of resistance fighters [in Yugoslavia] were involved in war crimes"?

Allen/

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Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 01 Apr 2004 00:34

Milcic : I'm a bit surprised by your answer ..... In general your messages are always extremely documented ( and I enjoy them ) so you are obviously better documented about military ops in your original "Fatherland " ( you are croat ,don't you ?) then about the war crimes which took places .Since i'm writing a book about allies war crimes , I'm indeed overdocumented about partisan's crimes . For instance read the memories of titist commander Milovan Djilas where he explains how they burned dozens of croatian and bosnian villages , how they cutted the legs of the inhabitants ,how he descrive the flammes burning the human flesh as having a purple colour ...
Remember the more than 100.000 croatians ,soldiers and civilians slaughtered at Bleiburg in 1945 : How many men would need a commander to slaughter 100.000 victims,more than 10 , isn't it ?

What about the extermination of 45.000 italian civilians of the Istrian and Dalmatian (and also of the Venezia Giulia) provinces ? That's not the zone of Bleiburg ...so they have been murdered by other titist partisans ....

What about the 70.000 german POWs who died in titist concentration camps ( Borovnica and the like ....)

What about the ten of thousand Volksdeutschen civilians slaughtered ?

What about the antinazis tchetniks murdered ,shot by firing squad ,etc... by titist partisans . What about the civilian population of some austrian zones ,invaded by titist partisans in April /May 1945 ???????
According to my sources ,the victims of titists war crimes amounts to at last 720.000 peoples ( bosnians,germans, volksdeutschen croatians,italians ,tchetniks , foreign axis volunteers - the cossaks of Von Pannwitz and their families ...or some white russians families - serbians (anticommunist ones or labeled as "collaborators" ), soldiers,policemen or civilans ,men ,elderlies ,women and childs , real or so-called collaborators ,innocent who were at the wrong place at the wrong time ,etc ...etc ... I have even a documented case of 23 new-zelander soldiers ( of the Alexander's army in 1945 in the zone of Trieste) who were disvovered in "foibe".

Milcic ,think : You need a lot of people to kill 720.000 peoples . ( Unless you throw a nuclear bomb ,like the americans did ... of course . But even the USAAF and the RAF which amounted to more than 800.000 civilans deads in western Europe ; Germany ,france ,Italy thanks to Mr."Bomber Harris " needed more than 100.000 air crewmen to do it .)

A last question : Did the word "foibe" means something to you ? If a reader don't know what it does means ,stay out of this topic and try to be documented before to spread prefabricated messages . (This one don't go for you ,Milcic.)

Regards .

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Post by Apocalypse_Now » 01 Apr 2004 00:36

Milcic : I'm a bit surprised by your answer ..... In general your messages are always extremely documented ( and I enjoy them ) so you are obviously better documented about military ops in your original "Fatherland " ( you are croat ,don't you ?) then about the war crimes which took places .Since i'm writing a book about allies war crimes , I'm indeed overdocumented about partisan's crimes . For instance read the memories of titist commander Milovan Djilas where he explains how they burned dozens of croatian and bosnian villages , how they cutted the legs of the inhabitants ,how he descrive the flammes burning the human flesh as having a purple colour ...
Remember the more than 100.000 croatians ,soldiers and civilians slaughtered at Bleiburg in 1945 : How many men would need a commander to slaughter 100.000 victims,more than 10 , isn't it ?

What about the extermination of 45.000 italian civilians of the Istrian and Dalmatian (and also of the Venezia Giulia) provinces ? That's not the zone of Bleiburg ...so they have been murdered by other titist partisans ....

What about the 70.000 german POWs who died in titist concentration camps ( Borovnica and the like ....)

What about the ten of thousand Volksdeutschen civilians slaughtered ?

What about the antinazis tchetniks murdered ,shot by firing squad ,etc... by titist partisans . What about the civilian population of some austrian zones ,invaded by titist partisans in April /May 1945 ???????
According to my sources ,the victims of titists war crimes amounts to at last 720.000 peoples ( bosnians,germans, volksdeutschen croatians,italians ,tchetniks , foreign axis volunteers - the cossaks of Von Pannwitz and their families ...or some white russians families - serbians (anticommunist ones or labeled as "collaborators" ), soldiers,policemen or civilans ,men ,elderlies ,women and childs , real or so-called collaborators ,innocent who were at the wrong place at the wrong time ,etc ...etc ... I have even a documented case of 23 new-zelander soldiers ( of the Alexander's army in 1945 in the zone of Trieste) who were disvovered in "foibe".

Milcic ,think : You need a lot of people to kill 720.000 peoples . ( Unless you throw a nuclear bomb ,like the americans did ... of course . But even the USAAF and the RAF which amounted to more than 800.000 civilans deads in western Europe ; Germany ,france ,Italy thanks to Mr."Bomber Harris " needed more than 100.000 air crewmen to do it .)

A last question : Did the word "foibe" means something to you ? If a reader don't know what it does means ,stay out of this topic and try to be documented before to spread prefabricated messages . (This one don't go for you ,Milcic.)

Regards .
Your writing a book about this?? Then please share your sources.

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Post by Allen Milcic » 01 Apr 2004 20:40

Hello Charlemagne:

There is no need to address me as 'Milcic'; my name is Allen, and you are welcome to use this more informal way in correspondence with me.

With regards to your posting - I am quite familiar with the track records of all sides involved in the conflict in "Yugoslavia" during WW2. While I am certainly more interested in the military aspects of the war, and have researched the Croatian participation for nearly 15 years, it is impossible to avoid information on war crimes committed during the time period as they often go hand-in-hand. Just to clear up any misundertandings, I currently reside in Canada, but I lived in Croatia for half of my life, and spend as much time as possible in my "homeland" (Croatians do not use the term "fatherland") every year as I possibly can.

Regarding warcrimes by the Partizans - you do not need to edify me on the topic whatsoever. My family suffered both during and after WW2 at the hands of Tito's men to a degree that is difficult for anyone to fathom - my father's side were Croatian patriots and many were NDH loyalists; my mother's Croatian Volksdeutchers. I am quite familiar with Bleiburg and the Croatian Way of the Cross, the post-war Communist-run concentration camps, Foibe, Nationalization of property, Djilas' books etc.
I know first-hand that Tito was not a nice man, and that many Partizans have blood on their hands. I generally have nothing but disdain for the man, his government, and his political and security aparatus.

The point of my original question to you (how you arrived at the 60% of Partizans were war criminals number) was that claiming this is an attrocious exageration. Just like claims against the NDH and the Ustase have been blown out of all proportion, so have the claims against the Partizans taken on a life of their own over the years. YES, the NDH was not a healthy state, Pavelic and his government were evil, and the Ustase committed crimes, but claims of "2,000,000 victims" etc are unsubstantiated and ridiculous; similarly YES, Yugoslavia was not a healthy state, Tito and his government were evil, the Communists committed crimes, but the sheer numbers of the claims against them are unsubstantiated and ridiculous.

Both the NDH and the Partizans were lead by morally corrupt individuals, and had certain elements that committed some horrible deeds. However, the great majority of men (and women) on both sides were honest, honourable soldiers that fought for their ideals or what they saw as righteous, or because they simply had no choice. Most of the men that fought for the NDH were not Fascists, killers or criminals, they were people that believed in an independent Croatian state, or they believed in the inherent evil of Communism, or they were simply called to duty by their homeland. Most of the men that joined the Partizans did not do so because they were Communists or barbarians or killers, but because they were anti-Fascists, or wanted foreign invaders out of their country, or simply because they believed it was their duty to fight for what they saw as their homeland. I think it is a gross miscarriage to call a majority of men that fought for the NDH as criminals; I think it is equally incorrect to equate a majority of the men that fought for the Partizans with warcrimes. To look at your claim numerically - The People's Liberation Army of Yugoslavija in 1945 had over 650,000 men (sources: Jugoslavija 1941-1945, Vlado Strugar, Beograd: Vojnoizdavački zavod, 1969; Narodnooslobodilačka vojska Jugoslavije, Nikola Anić, Sekula Joksimović i Mirko Gutić, Beograd: Vojnoistorijski institut, 1982.). Add to this the number of Partizans killed over the course of the war - 237,000 (source: Source: Vladimir Žerjavić: Gubici stanovništva Jugoslavije u drugom svjetskom ratu, Zagreb, 1989 Publisher: Jugoslavensko viktimološko društvo, Trg Maršala Tita 14, Zagreb). We come up with a total of 887,000 Partizans. You are claiming that 60% of them were criminals - that is 532,200 men and/or women!! You cannot be serious!

As per your claim that the Communists are responsible for roughly (your estimate) 720,000 killed in the immediate aftermath of WW2 - during the entire course of WW2, the total number of casualties sustained in "Yugoslavia" (Partizan, Collaborator, serving in Axis units + all civilians) was 947,000 (source: Zerjavic study, published as described above). You are claiming that the Partizans immediately post-war killed almost as many people as ALL SIDES in the conflict did over the course of 4 years of merciless guerilla warfare and counter-insurgency + frontal combat??

I recommend that you study the information available at this link:

http://www.hic.hr/books/manipulations/

This is the Zerjavic study on WW2 losses in Yugoslavia. If you are writing a book on Allied warcrimes in WW2, then I recommend you study these numbers before you embarass yourself by printing nonsense when it comes to Yugoslavia. You not only insult the people you accuse of being criminals, but you are also disrespecting the actual victims - you make it appear that their deaths are less relevent because their total numbers are not shocking enough and must be grossly inflated.

Regards,
Allen/

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Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 02 Apr 2004 02:12

Hi Allen ... Your post was interesting . So you are "fighting" the 60% ... and you may be absolutely right . I explain : This was a quick and dirty estimation ( in reality nobody will know the "statistic" about murderers within partisan's band .) And I wasn't talking specifically about yougoslavs partisans ,neither ...
But i was thinking about all the many partisans crimes in Western and Eastern Europe ,not talking about the USSR .... They are so many that ,one way or other ,lots of partisans are involved . Now I confess it was an exageration just to chokes the ones who proclaims in these pages that the partisans were nice folks , I didn't mean it in a scholar use ( And I surely didnt wrote that in my book :wink: ) ,it was just intented as second level reading to piss-off the partisans apologists .
You read it at first level , so I rectify and make it clear : Nobody have statistics of that , you right .

Now about the 720.000 figure - and being serious - : I went over my sources again and again : Yes ,they are 720.000
So I gone check on the website you give me ( thanks) and we have two possibilities :

- either I am right ,and the official yougoslavs numbers are balloney ( which may be the case )

- either I am wrong and in this case the overinflation comes from the number of slaughtered volksdeutschen civilians .... And I surely want to rectify while I'm on time !

In all cases we see how difficult it is to rely on proclaimed numbers ,and if it happens to me , it may happens too easily to the holocaustists ( with overinflationned numbers ranging from 200.000 victims up to 9 millions )

If we all agree that error is humane ,it piss me off to see that when we claims some numbers about allies war crimes , we are complied to nearly give the names of the victims one by one by the same peoples - in this forum - who do not accept any doubt and any discussion of the real holocaust number .

Interesting ....

(And some evidenced facts for Mr Van Noon just to show him that the partisans ,in any coutry wasn't "white Knights" ...War is war ,but when non-uniformed civilians start to plays a soldier's game ,it degenerates in lot of mess .)

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Post by Allen Milcic » 03 Apr 2004 00:00

Hello Charlemagne:

I sincerely respect a person who does not stubbornly persist in his/her views once abundant evidence to the contrary is provided. Your being open to information that contradicts, at least in part, your original views shows both courage and moral fortitude - hats off to you, you are a gentleman and a scholar, and unfortunately a rarity these days.

I highly recommend Zerjavic's work on losses in WW2 Yugoslavia, and I think you can use him as a reference with no second thoughts. His work was not sponsored by the Communist government of Yugoslavia - in fact, his study completely puts Yugoslavia's claims as to losses to shame, showing that the Communists heavily inflated the numbers of losses in WW2 in order to receive higher war reparations from Germany. I think you also may find the work of C. Michael McAdams to be of interest - his book titled "Croatia - Myth and Reality" (which covers the topic of wartime losses in Yugoslavia as well as other pertinent WW2 questions) is available in its entirety online at:

http://www.hic.hr/books/myth-reality/

Kind regards,
Allen/

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Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 04 Apr 2004 01:45

To Allen : I went through the website you mentionate . Interesting . After checking your sources (the website you mentionate) my old sources (of ten years ago when I started the project of my book) , and recent informations , I may say that we are all wrong ( at last me ,and your sources ; i.e. the studies of Dr. Kokovic and prof. Zerjavic )

First I committed a mistake about Bleiburg , I stupidely counted twice ,since I stated with 100.000 croat victims and added slovenians ,bosnians etc .... when in fact those are included within these 100.000 victims . I’m glad I talked to you ,because somehow I have 100.000 non-existent victims .

Then ,checking again in base at news informations , I still have a doubt about 100.000 others croatians victims : for instance I added the 50.000 POWs of the croatian regular army who surrendered to titists . Of course ,most were slaughtered . Of the ones who were sent to titists concentration camps not all of them died ...And of the ones who were executed ,some were executed at Bleiburg and are to be accounted on Bleiburg . Of course – again - some of them died in titist concentration camps ,more than your source mentionate .
This just shows how much difficult it is to try to figure real numbers ...

– (of course this fact is of no concern for the holocaustists who may announce any number about jews deads in KL since this is politically correct .- )

On these 100.000 ,the others 50.000 are the deads of the Way of Crosses ... do you have any source or idea about the victims of the Viacrucis ?

As an (inept) excuse , it must be noted that I first wrote the manuscript ten years ago . I am re-structuring it ( and sometimes rewriting it) in base at news infos .
I hadn’t re-structured the Balkans chapter by yet . ( And I am really glad of your message ,it has been an eye opener. ) I have so far re-structured the Italy chapter by now ( a very long chapter) and I am currently working at the re-structure of the chapter France ,another long chapter , so I havn’t retouched and rechecked the Yougoslavian situation and my claims were based on old sources ,evidently overinflationned . I surely don’t want some pro-allies revisionnist to be able to show that I am wrong . So i must be careful . For this reason I will keep in doubt those 100.000 deads until to find more sources . ( Basically for the Viacrucis.)

But your source don’t take into account two facts : The ten of thousands deads of the titist repression against the Kruzaris between 1945/49. We must add too the victims of the allies bombings on yougoslavian cities ( Belgrad, Zagreb , Ljubljana and others cities were bombed,like in all Europe) ...

The second fact ( and a pretty important one ) is that many clandestine mass graves (of croatians and bosnians victims of the 1945 period) are discovered even today . For instance recently was discovered the pit of Bribir ,near the dalmatian coast ,where dozens of croatians were thrown by the titists , then near Gospic ( in year 2000 or 2001) while croatian army soldiers were digging a trench ,it was found a mass grave with dozens other victims .
One year ago ,in 2003 ,was found the mass grave of Jazov Brod ( near Slavonski Brod),there lays hundreds of croatians victims ,killed in the old bolshevik style ( bullet in the neck ,hands tied at the back with wire ,the whole site looks like Katyn .)

Obviously the studies of Kokovic and Zerjavic (more theorical ; birth rate,etc... than pratical : go count skeletons ) don’t take it into account since those discoveries keep happening AFTER the studies were done . This is why I told you that those studies aren’t word of Gospel ,neither .

( NOTA :
At the Jazov Brod mass grave discovery was present a french correspondent ,friend of mine , who send me the story and the picture I scann at the end of this message .)


Now I take into accounts 100.000 german armed forces POWs ( including cossaks ,white russians and german policemen ,Org. Todt ,etc ...) of which 30.000 died from ill treatment in titist concentration camp and of which 70.000 never comebacked and are always officially missing . ( sources : basically the Thuet’s report elabored on base at testimonies of veterans ,german archives and International red cross reports and archives . If you want to know more,use the motor since i already mentionate it in this forum .) I have those 100.000 victims largely documented ,so I stay with this number .(Like in the case of the 1500Waffen –SS of the Prinz Eugen division ,POWs of the titists who were executed during 3 days by the 2nd Proletarian Brigade )
Since the study of prof. Zerjavic of the website are concerned only with yougoslavian victims ,these 100.000 POWs are not token into accounts in his study . Since i am concerned with allies war crimes ,they are in my study .


It must be noted that I am not talking only about titist exactions but I also take into accounts the civilians slaughtered by the tchetniks ( and the tchetniks slaughtered by the titists - non in combat but as POWs....) talking about Tchetniks your sources mentiones 2.000 while my sources ( anticommunist ones ,I confess ) mentiones 50.000 tchetniks murdered by titist in non-combat situation .(Basically between 1944/46) Quid ?

now ,if I was to take as granted your source of 2.000 tchetniks ( which i think way too samll ),it would be an excess of 48.000 non existent victims ...


Also i take into account the 45.000 italians victims of tchetniks and titists ( militaries and civilians , executed ,thrown to foibe , or deads by ill treatment in yougoslavian concentration camps .) A fact I have too much evidenced and documented ,so I stay with this number . I am talking about the italians from Istria ,Dalmatia and the ones of the today italian province of Venezia Giulia , invaded by the titists at the end of the war .
Of these 45.000 italians victims , 35.000 victims in Dalmatia and Istria and 10.000 in Venezia Giulia ( 5000 deads in Trieste , 4000 deads in Gorizia , 1000 deads in Udine.)
The majority of them being thrown in foibe (more than 1700 pits in the karstic zone of Venezia Giulia and Istria),as for instance in the case of the Basovizza pit which is not a natural one ,but the former well of a coal mine . The original depth of the pit (calculated in 1904) was of 265 meters . today it is of 135 meters ,only .The difference is because of 500 m3 of human remains , which means 4 corpses by m3 : 2500 peoples were thrown – alive –there . After the war ,the italian authorities would recover 600 fractured corpses before to quit ...it was just too much work . of those 2500 victims ,
1000 were RSI’s soldiers , 500 were policemen and 1000 were civilians ,women and childs . They were murdered by titists . Now any reader could start a polemic about if they were slaughtered by partisans or not . This topic is about partisans as war criminals ... Their assassins were titist troops which were the partisans transformed in regular army ,thanks to soviet-style uniforms (... and tanks ,and british aircrafts).

Oh, and by the way ,this is precisely in this pit that ,of the 600 corpses extracted by the italians after the war , it was found the remains of 23 new-zelanders allies soldiers of the Alexander’s army ,which has been kidnapped by the titists ( in this case it’s an allies war crime against the allies ! )

I take into account 50.000 anticommunists ( militiamen or civilians ) from Slovenian ,Montenegro and Serbia ( civilians,Neditch’s police forces and serbian SS Free Corps .)

(Your study shows a less number : 8000 slovenians , 23,000 serbian “Collaborators” etc... but here we are nearly with the same number .)

And ,of course , I have 175.000 murdered volksdeutschen ( Batschka province , Marburg / Lower Styria zone ,etc...) Any doubt ,here ,according to you ?

So my revised numbers stand by now as follows :

Yougoslavians citizens :

100.000 deads in Bleiburg .

100.000 deads in titist concentration camps and during the Viacrucis , victims of allies
bombings and of the repression against the Kruzaris and their symphatizers.

50.000 non bosnians and non croatians “collaborators”.

2.000 tchetniks (according to your source ...)

A total around 250.000 yougoslavians citizens . Not impossible on the death’s toll of 1.027.000 as claimed by Zerjavic .

Then the foreigners :

100.000 german armed forces (and foreign volunteers)

175.000 volksdeutschen civilians

45.000 italian civilians and POWS

A total of 320.000 .

A great total of around 570.000 victims .


What do you think ? By the way , I found other irregularities with the Zerjavic’s study when he mentionate the losses of the titists partisans ,since by September 1943 , 40% of the titist partisans were ex-italian soldiers who ,after the armistice and following Baadoglio’s orders , joined the partisans with all and their heavy weapons .. ( It was only by then that the titist partisans were really a threat for the german command .)
So ,on his number ,how many are yougoslavians and how many are italians ? (This is the problem with statistics ; if you overlook a fact - as I did on Bleiburg – the result will be wrong .)

Another interesting fact on Zerjavic study is that he claims 57.000 jewish victims in the whole Yougoslavia . A lot less than most holocaustist claims . In a West European country this guy would be sued ( LOL !)... Interesting .

Here the pic of the mass grave of Jazov Brod , hundreds of croatians victims discovered in 2003 ...

And the pic of some tchetniks , who are seen torturing (or cutting the throat) of a croatian farmer . At last those three partisans were certainly not nice guys ...

Thanks for the new links .
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Post by xcalibur » 04 Apr 2004 01:56

Seems to me we have some readers here for whom these photos may not be appropriate.

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Post by David Thompson » 04 Apr 2004 02:21

The photographs are within the guidelines for atrocity pictures -- barely.

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Post by Allen Milcic » 05 Apr 2004 23:51

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote: Face it ,xcalibur : What you don't stand is to see pics demonstrating that most partisans and some allies soldiers were as wilds as some nazis ones .
Charlemagne:

The Cetniks fought as fascist Italian allies as early as 1941, and collaborated with Germany as early as 1942...presenting a photo of Cetnik crimes is hardly evidence of Allied warcrimes.

I would also like to know what source you used for the wildly exaggerated claim that "40% of the Yugoslav Partizans were Italians"?

I will address your querries regarding victim data from Yugoslavia as time becomes available. Your information, especially regarding volksdeutsch losses, is quite incorrect.

Allen/

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Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 07 Apr 2004 22:49

To Allen : Now it seems that you are the misinformed one . 80% of the italian forces of the royal army joined the titists partisans ... I understand that “yougoslav” sources ( serbians and croatians) are not ready to acknowledge it ( the “national” prides are pretty touchies and narrowed...)
But it is an historical fact ackowledged by many italians and frenchs historians . Now find how many italian units were on yougoslavian soil by 1943 and do your maths ....few of them were captured by the germans (only a few ones at Split were captured by the 7.th SS) because most were already with the partisans .Of course the blackshirts units joined the germans . For instance the “Lombardia” and the “Venezia” division (this later under command of general Oxilia) joined the partisans ,according to the orders of Badoglio,(less their blackshirts units ,two regiments) and less the 31st armoured battalion who preferred to join the SS Nordland division . Now each division has a strenght of 15.000 men ....Less the blackshirts and some hundreds soldiers who stayed loyal to the Axis ,it is always 20.000 men who joined the titists at once ,only with those two divisions . It is a fact that the titists were not very active until after September 1943 ...when those italian units (and their collective weapons,above all the artillery ) joined them .I mean that the italians formed 40% of the titists forces by the end of 1943 ,not so in 1945 where many youngs and also tchetniks had joined the titists ( many men prefers to join a guerrilla when it is clear who is winning the war !) Indeed most of the fight was done ,before that ,by the tchetniks ( that you insist not to consider as “allies” troops...) So I give you here more facts about tchetniks and titists :

It may be tough to figure it today but in 1941/42 ,the 4 great allies chiefs were Churchill , Roosevelt ,Stalin and ...Mihailovic ( and this later well before De Gaulle and Chang-Kai-Chek ,at last at this time ) as evidenced in the american “Time” magazine of the period .
In November 1942 ,Tito proposed a truce to Hitler .Under this offert ,the germans would have to let a green card to the titists to let them fight the ustashis and the tchetniks . In exchange ,the titists partisans would not attack the germans and the italians and will help the german forces in case of an anglo-american invasion in the Balkans ... The german command in Yougoslavia communicate the offert to Hitler and pushed for it . (see german archives) but Hitler denied the pact ,forbidding all local pact with the communists .

After that ,at the beginning of 1943 ,a clandestine titist radio ( in a message relayed worldwide by Radio-Moscu) announced to the world that them ,the titists ,were the only “resistants” in Yougoslavia ,and that the tchetniks were collaborating with the nazis ( some isolated cases where the tchetniks have joined with italian units in case of self-defense after being attacked by titists ,who ,until this time ,have prefered to attack croatians and tchetniks but not the germans ) . This message rised doubt among the allies . The brits and the americans decided to send some observers in tchetnik and titist clandestine bases . Within the tchetniks ,the allies observers were free to go as wished .Not so within titists guerrillas where the allies officers were in fact nearly prisonners and had their movements watched and reduced . At this moment Stalin ordered the intervention of his agents infiltred within the british intelligence ( the infamous Kim Philby and Guy Burgess who directed an homosexual network – either by very “intimate” ties or by blackmail ) .Under their “close supervision” their agents would soon falsificate the reports to London of the british observers ,all in favor of the titists ... Another british intelligence officer (and indeed an NKVD – and later KGB,agent) was Klugman who was in charge of the droping of supplies to the partisans in Yougoslavia . He parachuted to the tchetniks many boxes ...full of carbon paper and chewing-gum ! No ammo,no weapons ,no medicine .By the way ,at first the tchetniks tought that the chewing-gum was soap .
It is still Klugman ,who find himself at the british intell office in Cairo ,Egypt , who analyzed the reports of the yougoslavian resistance ... he will change them to fit the goals of Burgess and Philby . This way ,some military operations done by the tchetniks are credited to the titists in the british radio .( The liaison agent between the british intelligence and the BBC is ...Guy Burgess .)

In the USA the thrusty man of the soviet was congressman Alan Cranston who presented the “Tito’s Option” to Roosevelt .

( It must be noted that Cranston would have some “difficulties” ,after the war , during the “witches ‘s hunt” of senator Mc Carthy who tried to expose the soviet spies and communists infiltred within the US administration .Mc Carthy ended ridiculized ,as everybody knows ,and the political career of congressman Cranston would be safe and happily carried on . Cranston is dead since some years ago ,by now ,but in the 90’s he was still an US congressman when the archives of the KGB - oppened during some years before to be closed again by Mr. Putin - revealed that he has been a KGB paid informer . The Clinton government muffled the information ... – as they mufled the delivery of US military secrets to the reds chineses in exchange of funding for the Clinton’s campaign ( the Lewinski scandal was a counterfire just to keep everybody busy and to camouflage the real scandal of the Clinton administration ,as revealed in the US congress by congressman Duncan Hunter ...but that’s another story ,and I digress . Let’s comeback with tchetniks and titists .)

As the cherry on top of the cake , Winston Churchill sent his own son Randolph Churchill as an observer to Tito . Tito received him in a most subtile way . He told Randolph that his life was too valuable and that he would not be allowed to go in combat .This way ,Randolph have no other source than the word of Tito to fullfill his mission . ThenTito called some of the most beautiful partisan women and made a kind of harem for Randolph who will live a really good life within partisans base . The girls danse for him and bring him lot of Slivovic and pivo (the local beer). Randolph is soon dazed by too much sex and alcohol . He will convince his father to let down Mihailovic and to support Tito .

( As an anecdote ,Randolph was captured by the SS paratroopers during the battle of Drvar ,as evidenced by a picture published in the book of Antonio Muñoz “Forgotten Legions”... too sad for Adolf ,the SS didn’t knew who he was in reality ,they didn’t keep a watchful eye and Randolph escaped . It would have been a psychological victory for the Reich ...)


Meanwhile ,at the Cairo , the new chief of the OSS station is Lt.colonel Donovan , a man who lived many years in Yougoslavia before the war and who speaks a fluent serbian . He soon find a lot of irregularities within titists action’s reports :

- the communists claims to liberate chronically the same zones .
- They claims to to have the same units enlisted in combat action ...in sectors distant of hundreds of kilometers between the one and the other .

Donovan understand quickly that Tito is bluffing . He let it know to Washington . Too late . Roosevelt is under the influence of Cranston , about yougoslavian matters :
In October 1943 a danish agent of the OSS ,Hans Tofte ,is tasked to organize by sea ,a logistical support to Tito .His “fleet” would soon be of 44 cargos which from Egypt (and then from the italian harbour of Bari , in 1944) will send supplies and tonns of weapons ( not carbon paner ) to the communists .( The last loss of Tofte will happens by January 5th 1945 when an SM-79 torpedo-aircraft of the italian fascist air force will sink a 5.000 tonns cargo in the Adriatic Sea .)

Then since the end of 1943 ,the tchetniks are without support and the titists better armed than ever . They have no other choice than to side with fascist italians –and sometimes with the germans – in self-defense .Who may blame them ? Of course it reforce the claims of Tito that they are collaborators , a smart communist move .
But they always fight the ustachis and the croaatian forces and the bosnians . And when they have the opportunity to have a shot or two at germans and italians , they take it too . In fact by this time the tchetniks fought a strange war of their own against everybody ,sometimes at Axis side ,sometimes against the Axis . As an instance it must be remembered the battle for the city of Gorizia : At the end of the war this italian city ,is defended by only 250 fascists carabinieri under comand of Lt. Tonarelli . They were attacked by tchetniks (in 1945) but managed to defeat them . Then appeared the IX Corps of the titist National Liberation Army ,numberous and well equipped .The battle went more difficult and the italian command sent two more formations ,the “Mussolini “ bersaglieri battalion and the third company of the “Fulmine” Decima MAS battalion...They will fight fiercely and the titists will enter the city only by May 3rd 1945 ,at the very end of the war ,but that’s another story .Fact is that tchetniks were always active against the Axis . So ,beware of quick analysis . The fact is that tchetniks were allies betrayed by the allies . The other fact is that if the soviet intell hadn’t managed to reverse the US and british support to Tito and if the local italian royal army units hadn’t joined the titists , the communist resistance would never have been an annoyance to the germans .Of course ,the titists went even more powerfuls after the russians entered Yougoslavian soil ,since they got T-34 tanks ,more weapons and even Spitfire airplanes by the brits .The partisans were transformed into a regular army ,with a soviet style uniform . But facts are facts .

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Allen Milcic
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Post by Allen Milcic » 08 Apr 2004 00:59

Hi Charlemagne:

I'm sorry, but I must disagree with you both on the Italian claims, and (especially) on the claims regarding the Cetniks.

Italian participation in the NOVJ:
- The total number of men and women under arms as part of the NOVJ & POJ (Narodno Oslobodilacka Vojska Jugoslavije i Partizanski Odredi Jugoslavije - the People's Liberation Army of Yugoslavia and the Partizan Detachments of Yugoslavia) in late 1943 (year of Italian armistice) was approximately 320,000 . By the end of that year, the following units of the NOVJ and POJ were created by men from surrendering Italian units:
- Garibaldi Division (formed from parts of Taurinese {spelling?} and Venezia Divisions)
- Natisone & Friuli Brigades
Total strength of these units: approximately 20,000.
Percentage of Italians in NOVJ & POJ in late 1943: 6.25%
[Sources: Jugoslavija 1941-1945, Vlado Strugar, Beograd: Vojnoizdavački zavod, 1969; Narodnooslobodilačka vojska Jugoslavije, Nikola Anić, Sekula Joksimović i Mirko Gutić, Beograd: Vojnoistorijski institut, 1982.]

"National pride", as you call it, has nothing whatsoever to do with these numbers. I personally despise the Yugoslav state, and do not think a "Yugoslav" is a real thing. I am a CROAT, my people are CROATIAN, my state is CROATIA. I DO, however, believe in the truth, and I do not like to colour or gloss-over history to suit my personal leanings or beliefs. Whatever I may think of Tito, his Partizan movement was a MAJOR player in the Balkans during WW2, and he was the leader of the ONLY group that consistenly fought against the Germans, the puppet regimes and collaborators, and the Fascist Italian forces.

As for the claim that Draza Mihajlovic was one of the "4 great allied chiefs in 1941/42" - absolute nonsense. "Time" magazine as a source, especially one that was written during the fog of war, is lacking in substance to say the least. I recommend you read Jozo Tomashevic's unbiased, well researched and documented work "The Chetniks", or possibly look into reading now de-classified OSS documents available at NARA (US National Archives and Records Administration), IWG Record Group 226, Box 440, document No. 248 "German-Chetnik Collaboration in Yugoslavia", No. 553 "Further German-Chetnik Collaboration in Yugoslavia"; Box 441, document No. 685 "Safe Passage Guarantee for Chetnik Troops", No. 689 "German-Chetnik Collaboration", No. 936 "German Report on Chetnik Cooperation", No. 946 "German Support for Chetnik Campaign in Serbian Theater". Cetnik-created myths about a Communist conspiracy in Britain that torpedoed the Cetnik resistance are simply laughable and unsupported by anything approaching a primary source. The Cetniks ended as they did for a simple reason - as early as November 1941 they began collaborating with the Italians and Germans. Even the Serbian King had to acknowledge this fact in 1944, when he called upon the people of "Yugoslavia" to throw their support behind Tito and not Mihajlovic.

Regards,
Allen/

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Post by michael mills » 08 Apr 2004 05:44

Whatever I may think of Tito, his Partizan movement was a MAJOR player in the Balkans during WW2, and he was the leader of the ONLY group that consistenly fought against the Germans, the puppet regimes and collaborators, and the Fascist Italian forces.
There are elements of mythology in the above statement.

Tito's strategy was based on the assumption that the Allies would eventually defeat Germany and Italy, and that at that time power in Yugoslavia would fall to whichever force had the strength to seize it and the support of the Allies.

Tito therefore tried to conserve his forces for the post-war struggle for power by avoiding combat with the German and Italian forces, asnd concentrating on fighting against those Yugoslav forces who would be his potential rivals in the post-war struggle, eg Serbian Chetniks, Croatian and Muslim nationalists.

Tito even tried to arrange a truce with the German occupiers that would leave his hands free to destroy his rivals within Yugoslavia. The local German commanders were very receptive to the idea, since it would free up their own forces, but the negotiations were eventually vetoed by Hitler, who refused to have any dealings with a "bandit".

The only reason why Tito did any substantial fighting against German and Italian forces is because they were continually mounting operations against him, which almost succeeded in wiping out his forces and capturing him; he had to flee into the mountains, where he remained in hiding and ineffective until the Italian surrender changed the balance of power.

To be fair, Tito's strategy was exactly the same as that of Mihailovic. The latter had initiated the first Serb nationalist resistance to the German occupation, but by the end of 1941 the Chetnik uprising in Serbia had been crushed by the German forces with great savagery (including such acts as the massacre at Kragujevac).

Thereafter, Mihailovic decided to conserve his forces, realising that Britain would eventually defeat Germany but in the meantime was eager to use Serb guerillas as cannon-fodder for the purpose of pinning down German forces. For that reason, he entered into local truces with Axis occupiers, particularly with the Italians, who tended to have friendly relations with the Serbs.

From then on, Mihailovic concentrated on positioning himself for the post-war struggle for power, and fighting the Yugoslav forces who would be his rivals, Tito's partisans and the forces of the Croatian state. In the latter case, there were not only strategic considerations, but also the need to protect the ethnic Serb population in the Croatian state from Ustasha persecution, and also take revenge on the Croats in traditional Balkan style.

Thus, Mihailovic succeeded in doing what Tito tried to do but failed, ie in extricating himself from a suicidal fight against the German and Italian occupiers, and concentrating his forces against the two main enemies of Serb nationalism, the Croat nationalists and the Communists.

Unfortunately for him, since the situation was that he was not fighting the Germans and Italians to any great extent and they were not fighting him, whereas Tito was forced to fight the Germans and Italians because they insisted on attacking him, it was easy for Tito and his supporters to brand Mihailovic and the Chetniks as collaborators.

The main part of Tito's forces consisted of ethnic Serbs from the Croatian State (modern Croatia and Bosnia). They had joined the Partisans, not because of Communist ideology or a desire to fight against the Axis, but simply as a means of defence against the Croatian Ustasha which was oppressing them and killing them in large numbers. They joined Tito because he was fighting the Ustasha, not because he was fighting the Axis.
Even the Serbian King had to acknowledge this fact in 1944, when he called upon the people of "Yugoslavia" to throw their support behind Tito and not Mihajlovic.
Yes, but the Yugoslav Royal Government-in-Exile was forced to do that by the British Government.

The King had been sold out by Ivan Subasic, the former Ban of Croatia (ie the ruler of the Banovina of Croatia, an autonomous entity within the Kingdom of Yugoslavia under the Sporazum of 1939, consisting of modern Croatia plus a substantial part of Bosnia-Herzegovina; it formed the basis of the Independent State of Croatia set up by Germany and Italy in April 1941). Subasic had gone into exile with the King, but had later begun negotiations with Tito (a fellow Croat).

Under the deal worked out between Subasic and Tito, the Royal Government-in-Exile would recognise Tito as the leader of the resistance in Yugoslavia and as the head of a post-war government, in return for which the King would be allowed to return as a powerless head of state.

The deal was endorsed by the British Government, and it was in that context that the King was compelled to denounce Mihailovic and endorse Tito.

Perhaps it was a case of ethnic solidarity between Subasic and Tito, two Croats getting together to overthrow the Serb nationalists who had dominated Yugoslavia before the war.

Note that at the end of the war, Tito welshed on the deal (surprise, surprise), and the King was not permitted to return; instead a purely Communist dictatorship was established.

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Allen Milcic
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Post by Allen Milcic » 08 Apr 2004 16:44

Good day Mr. Mills:

Allow me to quote you when referring to your posting - "There are elements of mythology in the above statement".

1. The Tito-Subasic Agreement (Sporazum Tito-Subasic): Ban Subasic had remained loyal to the government of Yugoslavia in exile, and at no time went behind the King's or anyone elses back to negotiate with Tito. The Agreement was reached on June 16, 1944 on the liberated island of Vis in the Adriatic, after contacts between Subasic (representing non-Communist anti-Fascist Yugoslav parties) and Tito were initiated at the behest of the British and US governments. The Allies were, at that time, compelled to de facto acknowledge the political situation in Yugoslavia - that Tito and his forces were the only viable enemy of Germany, and the only force strong enough to retain control of the state at the end of the war (an end that was at the time clearly in sight). With the AVNOJ Conference in Jajce in November 1943, the Communist guerilla movement became a legitimate political force, with support from all nations and nationalities of the Yugoslav state (formation of NKOJ [Nacionalni Komitet Oslobodjenja Jugoslavije] with all functions of a temporary government). The negotiations that Subasic entered into with NKOJ, and that ended with the Agreement, were actually an attempt by the Allies to reach at least some compromise wherein 'untainted' non-Communist parties (i.e. parties that did not collaborate with occupation forces) would at least have some influence in post-war Yugoslavia. Tito, a savvy politician, signed-off on the Agreement, thereby assuring continued assistance from the Allies, but fully aware that he could disregard whatever he wanted post-war when acting from a position of total control in the Yugoslav state. The fact that Subasic was a Croat is completely irrelevant - he negotiated in good faith to achieve results for the Yugoslav government in exile, not for Croatian nationalism.

2. Croats in Tito's forces: The claim that "The main part of Tito's forces consisted of ethnic Serbs from the Croatian State" is patently false. The numbers of Partizans in Croatia (territory of today's Republic) in late 1944, for example, was at the 150,000 level. Of these, Croats were 60,703 and Serbs were 24,528 (40.46% vs. 16.35%). In the same time period, in Bosna-Hercegovina there were approximately 100,000 Partizans, of which some 32,000 (32%) were ethnic Croats. This does not take into account a number of Bosnians that considered themselves "Croats of the Muslim faith". [Sources: Jugoslavija 1941-1945, Vlado Strugar, Beograd: Vojnoizdavački zavod, 1969; Narodnooslobodilačka vojska Jugoslavije, Nikola Anić, Sekula Joksimović i Mirko Gutić, Beograd: Vojnoistorijski institut, 1982.]

Regards,
Allen/

michael mills
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Post by michael mills » 09 Apr 2004 04:51

Allen,

I understand where you, as a person of Croatian ethnic background, are coming from.

After the war, the general impression in most of the Western world (eg here in Australia) was that the Croats in general were a people who had collaborated with the Axis, whereas the Serbs in general had been victims of the Axis and had resisted.

That impression was of course over-simplified and distorted. But now I see different version of history being propagated by Croat sources, which to my mind is equally as distorted.

According to this Croat version of history, the majority of the Coratian people were opposed to the Axis, and supported Tito's partisans, either openly or secretly; only a small minority of fringe extremists supported the Ustasha. By contrast, the Serbs are presented as being for the most paret collaborators with the Axis, either directly via the Nedic Government or indirectly via the Chetniks; it is claimed that only a small minority suported the partisans.

Nothing is gained if one false version of history is replaced by another false one.

In my opinion, the question of collaboration with or resistance to the Axis is not the main issue in interpreting the history of the then Yugoslavia during the Second World War. The main driving force was that the ethnic groups took the opportunity provided by the destruction of the Jugoslav state by the Axis to pursue traditional inter-ethnic rivalries and dreams of expansion, ie the Ustasha wanted to achieve a "Greater Croatia" and the Chetniks to achieve a "Greater Serbia". The different factions either collaborated with the Axis or opposed it, according to which action better suited their conflict with their internal enemies, and most did both at different times; even Tito offered to collaborate with the Germans if they would give him a free hand against his Chetnik rivals.

Allen, you have said that you despise the Yugoslav state and do not think that a "Yugoslav" is a real thing.

You may not be aware that the whole concept of "Yugoslavia" was invented by Croat intellectuals in the 19th century, and was certainly not something devised by Serbs.

It was Croat nationalists living in the Habsburg Empire (mainly those in Dalmatia, which was part of Austria and thus a little freer than Croatia and Slavonia, which were part of the Kingdom of Hungary) who devised the concept of a South Slav state (Yugoslavia), to consist of the parts of the Habsburg Empire inhabited by Croats, Serbs and Slovenes (Croatia, Slavonia, Dalmatia, Vojvodina, Bosnia-Herzegovina, parts of Carinthia and Styria). Their expectation was that that state would be dominated by the Croats, as the most culturally advanced of the South Slav peoples.

It was also envisaged that that Yugoslavia formed from parts of the Habsburg Empire could also incorporate the independent kingdoms of Serbia and Montenegro. However, the Croat intellectuals thought that the major role in the new, enlarged state would be played by them and other Croats.

The ideology of the ruling class of Serbia was quite different. Their aim was the expansion of the Kingdom of Serbia to incorporate all lands with a substantial Serb population (Bosnia-Herzegovina, Vojvodina, parts of Slavonia and Dalmatia), forming a "Greater Serbia". They did not want to form a state with Cropats and Slovenes.

During the First World War, there a Yugoslav Committee in exile, consisting of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, but dominated by its Croat members, whose program was the secession of the South Slav lands from the Habsburg Empire to form "Yugoslavia".

In October 1918, the Imperial Government in Vienna granted independence to the provinces inhabited by South Slavs, and the state of Yugoslavia was proclaimed by the Yugoslav Committee, with an invitation to Serbia and Montenegro to unite with it. However, the Serbian Army swiftly occupied the territory of the new state, and the Serbian ruling class was able to create a union between Serbia and the former Habsburg territories in a way that gave them domination over the new Yugoslavia, thereby frustrating the ambitions of the Croat intelligentsia, which saw itself as the natural ruling class of the new state.

The disappointment and resentments of the Croat intelligentsia against domination by the Serb ruling class, which had made of the new Yugoslavia an expansion of the Serbian kingdom, created the basis for the ethnic rivalry that eventually tore the artificial entity apart.

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