USA dismissed Switzerland as protecting power of German POWs

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Panzermahn
Member
Posts: 3639
Joined: 13 Jul 2002 03:51
Location: Malaysia

USA dismissed Switzerland as protecting power of German POWs

Post by Panzermahn » 22 Apr 2004 11:48

Hi,

i found from this website

May 8, 1945: Germany surrendered unconditionally. The U.S. State Department wasted no time dismissing Switzerland as the official Protecting Power for German prisoners, contravening the Geneva Convention.
http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20an ... r_II_2.htm

is this a violation of international law?

As far as i recall, Germany did not dismissed Switzerland as the protecting power of American POWs ever since Hitler declared war against USA in 1941

xcalibur
Member
Posts: 1457
Joined: 20 Apr 2003 15:12
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: USA dismissed Switzerland as protecting power of German

Post by xcalibur » 22 Apr 2004 14:21

panzermahn wrote:Hi,

i found from this website

May 8, 1945: Germany surrendered unconditionally. The U.S. State Department wasted no time dismissing Switzerland as the official Protecting Power for German prisoners, contravening the Geneva Convention.
http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20an ... r_II_2.htm

is this a violation of international law?

As far as i recall, Germany did not dismissed Switzerland as the protecting power of American POWs ever since Hitler declared war against USA in 1941

Panzermahn, have you bothered to read through that website? It's a basic regurgitation of Bacque's book laced with anti-semitic invective and unsubstantiated conspiracy theories.

Ostuf Charlemagne
Member
Posts: 1014
Joined: 18 Dec 2002 12:33
Location: Honduras

Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 23 Apr 2004 02:12

Xcalibur : you are definitely not on top of the information ...if so ,you would know that when Stephen Ambrose tried to deny J.Bacques - barking at first that Bacques was a neo-nazi and other non-senses - he ended recognizing that Bacques was right ,after having made his own counter-investigation .Instead to deploy your convenient umbrella of the accusation of "antisemitism" ,( by the way an old ,universal,falacious and nearly wore out accusation ) ,start trying to refute what either Panzermahn or the site is saying ,in base at evidenced facts ...there ,maybe ,you will be able to convince somebody .So far you have just demostrated your lack of serious arguments and your great capacity to write emotives answers....

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23572
Joined: 20 Jul 2002 19:52
Location: USA

Post by David Thompson » 23 Apr 2004 02:28

Ostuf. -- You said:
when Stephen Ambrose tried to deny J.Bacques - barking at first that Bacques was a neo-nazi and other non-senses - he ended recognizing that Bacques was right ,after having made his own counter-investigation .
Where can the readers find Ambrose's recognition that Bacque was right? I'd like to see it for myself, particularly after having seen interviews with Ambrose pointing out the flaws in Bacque's study. Of the many threads on Bacque's work, yours is the only post I've seen anywhere that claimed Ambrose withdrew his criticism.

Readers looking for "bacque-up" statistics may find these threads of interest:

Guess who’s Bacque
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=43792

One million German POWs killed by US/UK?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=27723

Chock Full of Death; German POWs by James Baque
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=17360

50,000 German POWs died in US captivity one small area?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=12779

Eisenhower’s Guilt
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=10112

American and Franch (post) war crimes
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=8288

German POW treatment by Americans
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=8614

German POWs
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=141

for US use of POW labor this thread may be helpful:

The US and POW labor in WWII
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=40027

xcalibur
Member
Posts: 1457
Joined: 20 Apr 2003 15:12
Location: Pennsylvania

Post by xcalibur » 23 Apr 2004 03:05

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:Xcalibur : you are definitely not on top of the information ...if so ,you would know that when Stephen Ambrose tried to deny J.Bacques - barking at first that Bacques was a neo-nazi and other non-senses - he ended recognizing that Bacques was right ,after having made his own counter-investigation .Instead to deploy your convenient umbrella of the accusation of "antisemitism" ,( by the way an old ,universal,falacious and nearly wore out accusation ) ,start trying to refute what either Panzermahn or the site is saying ,in base at evidenced facts ...there ,maybe ,you will be able to convince somebody .So far you have just demostrated your lack of serious arguments and your great capacity to write emotives answers....
Fair enough. We'll start with this gem: "Eisenhower, the Swedish Jew..."

Please explain both the relevance as well as the truthfulness of that phrase (quoted from the site) to the discussion at hand.

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23572
Joined: 20 Jul 2002 19:52
Location: USA

Post by David Thompson » 23 Apr 2004 05:19

I saw that too, and I couldn't believe it. The author also referred to Eisenhower as "this Jew Commander of America's forces, who became the 34th President of the United States." If a person only read the official biographies, they would think Eisenhower was a presbyterian. You'd never spot Ike for a Judaeo-bolshevik without a little "Revisionist" help!

image from http://modernhumorist.com/mh/0008/conve ... istory.cfm
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Rob - wssob2
Member
Posts: 2387
Joined: 15 Apr 2002 20:29
Location: MA, USA

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 23 Apr 2004 16:42

he ended recognizing that Bacques was right
Ambrose did not such thing. Nor did the German gov't or the Red Cross.

Quite the contrary. Bacque's book Other Losses has conclusively been dismissed as junk. The only speaking engagements Bacque can get are the David Irving/IHR conspiracy symposiums next door to the flat-earth and UFO conventions.

Instead to deploy your convenient umbrella of the accusation of "antisemitism" ,( by the way an old ,universal,falacious and nearly wore out accusation )
Antisemitism is hardly wore out. It's still common, and often here on the forum.

xcalibur
Member
Posts: 1457
Joined: 20 Apr 2003 15:12
Location: Pennsylvania

Post by xcalibur » 23 Apr 2004 17:46

Another gem: 2,000 calories per day needed to "keep a sedentary adult alive".

This statement is absolute crap.

Ostuf Charlemagne
Member
Posts: 1014
Joined: 18 Dec 2002 12:33
Location: Honduras

Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 23 Apr 2004 23:18

Xcalibur : I knew you were going to argue , you are so predictable ... so I was ready .
When you say that J.Bacques is an antisemit ,neo-nazi ,etc....either you lie ,either you are ignorant of some facts ,beginning with the fact that Bacques wrotes a biography of famous french resistant Raoul Just , and it was “sympathetic “ for Just . Here we goes ...

Act I (like at the theater...) : When Bacques started to write “Other Losses” (and further , “Crimes and Mercies”) he was backed up by no-less than Ernest Fisher ,who have a doctorate from the Wisconsin University and who fought within the US 101st Airborne division during WW2 . Are you going to say that Fisher is a neo-nazi ? ( Knowing you ,maybe you will ,after all...)
During many years ,Fisher was the main historian of the US army center in Washington .He was also the writer of the official story of the american campaign in Italy... The late general Clark was the one who bring Fisher with Bacques in 1987 to examinate the documents that Bacques used to write “Other Losses”. Both men did all the investigation ,going at the National Archives in Washington ,to the Georges C. Marshall library ,(Lexington,Virginia) ,and lot of places where they interviewed some witnesses,etc.

Act II . Stephen Ambrose ,than director of the “Eisenhower Center” of New Orleans was consulted to examinate the manuscript of Bacques.Both men were presented by british historian MRD Foot in 1988 .Ambrose suggested some modifications ,but also wrotes to Bacques : “ I just read “Other Losses” and I wish I hadn’t . I had nightmares since I started .You have a sensational and dreadful story and I know it must be published .But I won’t write the foreword .I can’t do it for Ike . I do not agree with some of your intepretations but I do not deny the thruth of your discovering . You have an exceptional material ,declarations of eyes witnesses ,you have the great lines of an awful truth nearly unbearable . You have done a capitol historical discovering whose impact is not foreseable ...” etc .... Further ,Ambrose backed –up and confirmed the theses of the book of Bacques at Dan Rather’s “Evening News” and also in an interview at Times Magazine ,october 2nd 1989, where he declared “the americans cannot hide those awful events at the end of the war ,a war we had fought in name of decency ,democracy and freedom .We have no excuses .”


Act III . But (and it’s a big BUT ) by the end of 1989 ,Ambrose got a job with the US army war college in Pennsylvania .... and suddenly ( how strange ...) he changed his position about the book of Bacques . So he wrotes a book to deny Bacques , “Eisenhower and the german POWs” , also he gave declarations against the work of bacques ,like “it is a biased book” or “ when the research will be effectuated , we will see that Bacques is wrong “ (a research that Ambrose took a great care NOT to do .) , in short , words but not evidences .

Facts - 1 : The western allies had more than 5 millions german POWs at the end of the war . This number was reduced to 3.800.000 by eisenhower thanks to an administrative trick ,calling these POWs “disarmed enemies forces” so they were not POWs anymore and they were denied the survey of international Red Cross ,which is exactly what Panzermahn is talking about . Do you have any evidence to deny that , Xcalibur , YES or NO ?

Facts – 2 : The revisionist book of Ambrose fails to explain where were buried the corpses of the hundreds of thousands missing german POWs of the allies ...Do you know where they are ,Mr Xcalibur ? YES or NO ?

Facts - 3 : Up til the end of 1945 ,Eisenhower forbiden the german POWs to send letter to their families .... Why ? Could it be because he knew that lot of them weren’t going to be alive in some months ?? Any answer ,Xcalibur ? And if you have one ,keep in mind that as soon as they were made prisonners ,the germans authorized the western POWs , ie : frenchs , belgians ,britishs and later ,americans ,to write to their relatives by the way of the Red Cross . Why the americans were more inhumanes than the nazis in this particular case ? (and ,please ,don’t tell me the postmen were deads .The mail and the bus,tram ,etc...were working in Germany as soon as August 1945)

Facts – 4 : unlike Ambrose ,Bacques went to consult the soviets archives after 1990... The numbers are pretty clear . The german governments always claimed that a total of 1.400.000 POWs never cames back. The russian archives reveals that 600.000 german POWs died in eastern camps or during their transfer . 1.400.000 – 600.000 = 800.000
A number very close to the 900.000 german POWs deads in western allies camps claimed by Bacques in his book . Enough said . But maybe the numbers of german post-war governments and soviet archives were compiled by a neo-nazi skinhead ,right Xcalibur ?

Facts - 5 : Now I know that you get easily confused by the many instances and numbers ,as you confessed to me some days ago . So ,to avoide you an headache ,just answer the following question : Here two pics of two funeral urns from two germans who died – somedays after the war - in the french POWs camp of the Mont Saint Michel . Their corpses were burned ( ah ,the allies used crematoriums too !!!) and may be find today in the german cemetery of the same city .

So if Bacques is lying - as you claim - , may I ask you , Xcalibur , WHAT WERE DOING IN A POW CAMP AN OLD MAN OF 87 YEARS OLD ( Karl Schroder) AND A TWO YEARS BABY ( Camille Fuchs) ???

Of course , we (Panzermahn and myself ) beg you to give coherent ,evidenced explainations instead of your usual emotive non-sustained denials . Try not to use the word “antisemit”, it’s kind of inflationned . Stick to the facts ,please .

Thank you .

Thompson : About Ambrose withdrawing his denial of Bacques , I read somewhere that few days bafore his death ,Ambrose declared that the work of Bacques had "destroyed the work of his lifelong (of Ambrose)",implying Bacques was right ,as Ambrose stated at first ,by the way ..... I didn't found my source (going over my archives yesyerday night ) so I do not maintain it ... up till I find it .
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

xcalibur
Member
Posts: 1457
Joined: 20 Apr 2003 15:12
Location: Pennsylvania

Post by xcalibur » 23 Apr 2004 23:54

You could have spared yourself a lot of angst had you read my initial post correctly:

1) I never said Bacques is an anti-semite. I did say that the website contained a "regurgitation of Bacque's laced with anti-semitic invective."

2) You will note that Dave Thompson also mentioned an anti-semitic remark he found on the site.

3) Since Bacques is not the author of the website it should have been obvious to you that my remarks were not addressed towards him, but rather to the author(s) of the website.

4) As far as your laborious discussion of Messrs. Bacques and Ambrose, I have no opinion. I've not finished reading Bacques and I've only read one Ambrose book which I did not care for at all. But you might also note I didn't bring up this issue. You did.

Ostuf Charlemagne
Member
Posts: 1014
Joined: 18 Dec 2002 12:33
Location: Honduras

Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 24 Apr 2004 03:22

Translation of the message of Xcalibur (in good english : mine :lol: ):

He have NO arguments when facts are showing up ....

Ostuf Charlemagne
Member
Posts: 1014
Joined: 18 Dec 2002 12:33
Location: Honduras

Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 24 Apr 2004 03:24

Hi everybody . I see that all our “traditional adversaries” are there ,which is fine . Rob ,long time no see ... let’s start clearing two points :

a – I didn’t read the books of Bacques and Irving ,because I don’t want . I explain : since I am writing my own book ,I don’t want to fall in the temptation to copy on their work ,which would be not only dishonest but silly ; a book compiled in base at 10 or 20 other books don’t makes for a new work .

b – About “this swedish jew” ... Personally I don’t care a fig if Eisenhower was jew or not since I do believe he was following the orders of Roosevelt . In stygmatizing Eisenhower as a war criminal , I think that Bacques missed the whole point , the situation was coming from the very top and Eisenhower was only an instrument . Even so ,I think that most of you are using the word “antisemit” when you have no arguments , implying that an “antisemit” is always lying . In your minds ,it dispense you to prove anything you says ,which is pretty comfortable .Fact is that even an antisemit may say the truth ,like an antifascist ,or antinazi ,or anticommunist etc .... So would you stop bitching ,please ,and try to devellop a talk in base at facts and in a gentleman fashion . If no , not only we will ignore you and we won’t answer your posts ,but in doing so ,you will prove to most of the young readers that you have no arguments . That said ,and the rules set up ,let’s start .

I don’t know if the following facts shows up in the work of Bacques ,but they will surely appears in mine .

1 . The first SS veteran I ever meet was a former Ostuf of the 12th SS Hitler – Jugend .
He was also a former sergeant-major of the 1st REP ,the french Foreign Legion first parachute regiment which was dissolved after the putsch against De Gaulle in 1961 .
His name was (or is ....so I won’t spell it entirely ) Hermann W... It was 1972 , I was 12 ,and he was talking with my dad ( Sorry to disapoint any freudian theory ,but my dad wasn’t a neo or old nazi . He loved Mercedes cars – the old man had always have a passion for cars – and the german was a Mercedes salesman in France .) When it showed up that the guy was a former SS and had surrendered to US forces at the end of the war ,I told him that he was lucky not to have been captured by the soviets .
Oooops ! you should have seen his face . He was furious ,indigned and he said that the americans tortured him and that he had rather be captured by the ruskies . (First breach in my then theory that the bolsheviks were murderers while western allies where nice folks who respected the Geneva Convention ...) remembering his face when I told him that , I am inclined to think that Mr Bacques is not entirely wrong .

2. According to the rules of war ,the army of general Patton started liberating german POWs at the end of the war .... Patton get called to attention by his superiors and those POWs were recaptured . This is a clear evidence that: a) The convention of Geneva wasn’t respected by US forces ,and :b) It existed some orders from the very top for either an extermination of german POWs by “natural” starvation or to use them as nearly unfeed slave labor which means death ,soon or later .

3. In May 45 ,the swiss Red Cross had more than 100.000 tonns of food ready to ship to the german POWs in US camps in Germany and France and the swiss started to send some of these loads ...the US Military Government in Germany sent back whole trains of food to the Swiss Red Cross ,forbidding more shipments . Why ? If I was the military commander of a POWs camp ,I would be happy if somebody else was going to pay for the food of my prisonners . (Sources : “Dunant’s Dream” by Caroline Moorehead , Carroll & Graf , New York ,1999) Another evidence of a pre-plan of starvation .

4. Where are the germans missing POWs ? Most were clandestinely buried ,sometimes in mass graves . After that the US sowed lots of pinewood ,as did the russians at Katyn . As an evidence ,near the ex- US manned POWs camp of Lambach ,in Austria , in 1996 , many skeletons were found under pinewood (those pine threes were aged about 50 years ...how strange .) At first ,and because of their teeths ,it was dictamined that they were skeletons of german POWs from the camps .Then the austrian government contacted the jewish community ( I wish they had contacted the Pope ,because now someone will scream about “antisemitism”...) which concluded to some jewish victims of the nazis ...too sad that this was later proved as a balloney . So the austrian government settled everything in an official conclusion : They were the remains of some soldiers of the 30 Years War .... even if some skeletons had good , german ,dental prothesis of the 20th century .

5. Even the french left-wing newspaper “Le Monde”,in an article published by October 1st 1945 , was claiming against the bad treatments of german POWs :
“ 17.000 german POWs have been delivered recently to France by the americans (...) since then ,the mortality toll is of 10 men daily (...)By now and after some amelioration ,they receive 1006 calories a day (...)according to the government (the french one – my note -) Germany must provide their clothing ,but there is no more Germany (...) An human being must to be provided with the minimum,but according to the International Red Cross ,even this minimum has not been reached .(...) These prisonners ,we got them for to rebuild our country .The farmer nows very well that he must feed his beast.We can’t believe that our government cannot share the same point of view about human beings .”

In fact it was worse than that ; in 1945 ,Mr Pradervand ,delegate of the International Red Cross in France ,tried to have a meeting with De Gaulle to talk about the bad treatment inflicted to german POWs in french camps .De Gaulle denied to receive him .

6. Here some testimonies you won’t find in the book of Bacques :

Testimony of Herbert Fuerbringer in his book “ 9.SS Panzerdivision” ,editions Heimdal ,France ,1984. : “ The men of the unit are transported to Ebensee am Traunsee. (...) the americans guards makes pass the germans in between two ranks of former KL inmates armed with truncheons (...) feeding rations very low (...) thousands of men will die from starvation “
May I remember that the POWs are supposed to be feed AND protected ? Another voluntary breaking of the Convention of Geneva ,so ,technically ,a war crime ...anyway ,12.000 waffen-SS POWs will die only at Ebensee ,as it is remembered today by a stele ,there . But in 1990 ,in his denial of Bacques , Stephen Ambrose stated stupidely that only 4537 german POWs had died in Ike’s camps , i.e. a mortality toll of 1,46 % ( for a number of 3.097.000 POWs ,the others ones were already deads and 700.000 had been gived to the frenchs ) ,well ,I am sorry but Ebensee only is enough to shows that Ambrose IS a LIER . Period .

Testimony of Ustuf Draeger ( SS parachute bttl.) “ The americans (...) took us to Koenigstein am Taunus .(...) Then I was sent to Bad Mergentheim ,where german army doctors and nurses were said to have been told that they would be home by Christmas if they mistreated the SS men .You could not believe how it was .”
(In judiciary lenguage this is called a “crime by procuration” ,right ,Thompson ? At last in my country ....) Sources: “Forgotten Legions” by Antonio Muñoz,Paladin press,USA.

About the german POWs gived to the frenchs – which I think to know is a topic of Bacques too – let’s see the testimony of Unterscharfuehrer Hans Hillig :
“The worst is the camp of Bad Kreuznach .Every night ,the soldiers beat us with buttstrokes .Every night we suffers deads and woundeds . I could write a full book on that .(...) We reached the camp of Thoree after 3 days without food ,without drink.”

About the same camp of Thoree ( full name is Thoree – les – Pins) ,let’s see the testimony of Wehrmacht POW Hermann Dannecker : When we where on the Bochum ( a boat ) I weighted 86 kilos . In the last days at Thoree ,my weight was 48 kilos .” When the trains bringing the POWs to Thoree where oppened , it was lots of deads suffocates ,like in the nazis trains to the KL ,exactly the same .
(Sources : article in the magazine “Aventures de l’Histoire” Hors-serie 7 , May 2003 ,France .)

And in their POWs camps in Italy ( a subject forgotten by Bacques ,but not by me ) the americans were not any nicer . Testimony of prisonner Pietro Ciabattini ,ex-Standarten Oberjunker of the italian SS division :”In the US camp of Scandicci the hygiene was non-existing ,the food horrible and not enough. The camp was watched by the worst rascals of the US army ,in general they were italo-americans from the immigration .(...)
In Coltano camp the americans used the sytem of “kapos”
(like in german KL – my note ...from where can you says that the allies were better than the nazis if they used the same methods ???)
In this case they were germans POWs suddenly antinazis ,who were allowed to beat the italian POWs. The philippinos sentries of the US army were allowed to shot by night at the prisonner who needed to take a piss .There the prisonners had tents ,but were not allowed to be under the tents during the day ,so soon happened death by sunstrokes and cases of pleuresie “( I don’t have the english word ,Thompson , it’s because to be under the rain .Broncho-pneumony ??)
In fact an amelioration will happens in Coltano only after the camp would be under responsability of the badoglian army ,in september 1945 .(Sources : “Siena fra la scure e la falce e martello” by P.Ciabattini , editions I.Mori , Italy .)

I could go on and on and on ...But our friend Xcalibur is unable (he told me so ) to read long messages ,so I will end it . But based on all that ,I think Bacques is right (without to read him ,as explained ) and I know Stephen Ambrose is a lier .
If you want to deny these facts ,do it in an evidenced way ,step by step ,respecting the “number” of the my points ,so we know what we are talking about .Thanks .

xcalibur
Member
Posts: 1457
Joined: 20 Apr 2003 15:12
Location: Pennsylvania

Post by xcalibur » 24 Apr 2004 05:27

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:Translation of the message of Xcalibur (in good english : mine :lol: ):

He have NO arguments when facts are showing up ....
No, not when there's no argument. Or are you trying to start one?

Panzermahn
Member
Posts: 3639
Joined: 13 Jul 2002 03:51
Location: Malaysia

Post by Panzermahn » 24 Apr 2004 11:24

Kameraden Ostuf Charlemagne,


Thanks a lot for the informative post...really shows some of the forgotten aspects of Uncle Sam's armed forces in WW2

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23572
Joined: 20 Jul 2002 19:52
Location: USA

Post by David Thompson » 24 Apr 2004 17:30

Looking at the development of this thread, I have a few remarks:

(1) panzermahn originally started the thread in this manner:
May 8, 1945: Germany surrendered unconditionally. The U.S. State Department wasted no time dismissing Switzerland as the official Protecting Power for German prisoners, contravening the Geneva Convention.


http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20an ... r_II_2.htm

is this a violation of international law?
There are several problems with this approach:

(a) I have repeatedly asked you, panzermahn, to go to the Geneva Convention of 1929, read the text of it at the Avalon Project website or elsewhere, and then try to figure out what provision was violated before you ask questions like this. For some reason, panzermahn, you won't do the basic work. I do not propose to warn you again. I do intend to lock or delete your non-complying posts without warning.

(b) The next problem is that the website where this claim is found does not give any proof for the claim. If those claims were posted here, the thread would be locked and the author would be given 24-48 hours to come up with some proof. If he didn't the thread would remain locked. Do not give citations to websites which do not give sources for their claims.

(c) Another problem is that the website had a number of other undocumented claims that were demonstrably false and offensive. This distracts the reader from the topic of the thread -- the initial question posed by panzermahn -- and generates off-topic posts. If posters avoid giving citations to websites which do not give sources for their claims, we can avoid this problem.

As a result of these problems, we still have no proof that the initial premise of this thread -- "The U.S. State Department wasted no time dismissing Switzerland as the official Protecting Power for German prisoners, contravening the Geneva Convention" -- is even true.

Needless to say, under these conditions, the war crime question hasn't been answered either. So, the lesson that I have drawn from this experience is that it is easier to lock a non-complying thread like this than it is to post a lengthy explanation -- again -- of why threads like this are undesirable.

(2) That gets us to the more interesting material posted by Ostuf. Charlemagne. I think it can be taken for granted that there were individual cases of mistreatment or even murder of POWs. These individual cases should be examined and the perpetrators should be condemned. The real question is whether there is evidence that there was a criminal policy adopted by one or another country to violate the laws and customs of war.

If it were not for this more interesting material I would already have locked this thread. Here are the propositions which interest me:

(a)
The western allies had more than 5 millions german POWs at the end of the war . This number was reduced to 3.800.000 by eisenhower thanks to an administrative trick ,calling these POWs “disarmed enemies forces” so they were not POWs anymore and they were denied the survey of international Red Cross ,which is exactly what Panzermahn is talking about .
Is this allegation true? What is the proof?

(b)
In May 45 ,the swiss Red Cross had more than 100.000 tonns of food ready to ship to the german POWs in US camps in Germany and France and the swiss started to send some of these loads ...the US Military Government in Germany sent back whole trains of food to the Swiss Red Cross ,forbidding more shipments . Why ? If I was the military commander of a POWs camp ,I would be happy if somebody else was going to pay for the food of my prisonners . (Sources : “Dunant’s Dream” by Caroline Moorehead , Carroll & Graf , New York ,1999) Another evidence of a pre-plan of starvation .
Can anyone locate this passage and post it? Is there any more detail on the incident; for example, who were the officers who turned back the trains and what reasons did they give. Did this happen just once, or repeatedly?

(c)
Up til the end of 1945 ,Eisenhower forbiden the german POWs to send letter to their families .... Why ? Could it be because he knew that lot of them weren’t going to be alive in some months ??
Is this allegation true? What is the proof?

(d)
According to the rules of war ,the army of general Patton started liberating german POWs at the end of the war .... Patton get called to attention by his superiors and those POWs were recaptured . This is a clear evidence that: a) The convention of Geneva wasn’t respected by US forces ,and :b) It existed some orders from the very top for either an extermination of german POWs by “natural” starvation or to use them as nearly unfeed slave labor which means death ,soon or later .
Are these allegations true? What is the proof?

(e)
Another voluntary breaking of the Convention of Geneva ,so ,technically ,a war crime ...anyway ,12.000 waffen-SS POWs will die only at Ebensee ,as it is remembered today by a stele ,there . But in 1990 ,in his denial of Bacques , Stephen Ambrose stated stupidely that only 4537 german POWs had died in Ike’s camps , i.e. a mortality toll of 1,46 % ( for a number of 3.097.000 POWs ,the others ones were already deads and 700.000 had been gived to the frenchs ) ,well ,I am sorry but Ebensee only is enough to shows that Ambrose IS a LIER . Period .
What is the source for Ambrose's statement? What is the source for the number on the Ebensee stele?

(f)
where were buried the corpses of the hundreds of thousands missing german POWs of the allies
and
Where are the germans missing POWs ? Most were clandestinely buried ,sometimes in mass graves . After that the US sowed lots of pinewood ,as did the russians at Katyn . As an evidence ,near the ex- US manned POWs camp of Lambach ,in Austria , in 1996 , many skeletons were found under pinewood (those pine threes were aged about 50 years ...how strange .) At first ,and because of their teeths ,it was dictamined that they were skeletons of german POWs from the camps .Then the austrian government contacted the jewish community ( I wish they had contacted the Pope ,because now someone will scream about “antisemitism”...) which concluded to some jewish victims of the nazis ...too sad that this was later proved as a balloney . So the austrian government settled everything in an official conclusion : They were the remains of some soldiers of the 30 Years War .... even if some skeletons had good , german ,dental prothesis of the 20th century .
We need to get solid figures about the number of POWs that are supposed to be missing, and the basis for the conclusion that they were "missing."

(g)
Here two pics of two funeral urns from two germans who died – somedays after the war - in the french POWs camp of the Mont Saint Michel . Their corpses were burned ( ah ,the allies used crematoriums too !!!) and may be find today in the german cemetery of the same city .

So if Bacques is lying - as you claim - , may I ask you , Xcalibur , WHAT WERE DOING IN A POW CAMP AN OLD MAN OF 87 YEARS OLD ( Karl Schroder) AND A TWO YEARS BABY ( Camille Fuchs) ???
The suggestion here is that civilians were confined in a POW camp. This allegation is different from the ones in (a) through (f), which dealt with the fate of POWs rather than civilians. The question this allegation raises is whether the French camp at Mont Saint Michel was exclusively for POWs, or whether it was a DP (Displaced Persons) camp, or what.

Let's focus on these questions, and avoid personalizing posts.
Last edited by David Thompson on 20 Jul 2004 01:31, edited 1 time in total.

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”