Dresden 1945

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kim vachon
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Dresden 1945

Post by kim vachon » 18 Jul 2002 18:38

can anyone tell me which units were in Dresden in Feb. of 1945 ?? :?

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Andy H
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Post by Andy H » 19 Jul 2002 21:40

It would be near impossible to isolate individual units in Dresden in Feb'45 as many were passing through to the Eastern front, which was getting closer by the day

:D Andy from the Shire

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Dresden units....

Post by varjag » 20 Jul 2002 13:30

Yep - Cheshire....there was probably fragments of one hell of a mess -
but can we agree - they were mostly civilians?

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Richard Murphy
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Post by Richard Murphy » 20 Jul 2002 14:05

As were the victims at Guernica, Rotterdam, London, Coventry, Bournemouth, Southhampton, Liverpool and almost all of the Allied casualties in the Battle of the Atlantic (The Merchant Navy is not part of the Armed Forces.) etc etc.

Regards,

Rich

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kim vachon
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Post by kim vachon » 20 Jul 2002 15:15

Thank you Gentlemen I thought it would be a long shot but had to try.

Oswald Mosley
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Post by Oswald Mosley » 21 Jul 2002 00:28

Richard Murphy wrote:As were the victims at Guernica, Rotterdam, London, Coventry, Bournemouth, Southhampton, Liverpool and almost all of the Allied casualties in the Battle of the Atlantic (The Merchant Navy is not part of the Armed Forces.) etc etc.

Regards,

Rich



Usual pathetic excuse, this one. None of the places mentioned above were bombed anything remotely as badly as Dresden. Roughly the same number of people are estimated to have died at Dresden as all those killed by German bombing on the UK during the whole of the war.
The merchant navy was a legitimate target because it was helping to sustain the enemy's economy and food supplies. The fact that civilians were manning the ships is irrelevant - they were never targets per se.

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Richard Murphy
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Post by Richard Murphy » 21 Jul 2002 11:02

Oswald Mosley wrote: Usual pathetic excuse, this one. None of the places mentioned above were bombed anything remotely as badly as Dresden. Roughly the same number of people are estimated to have died at Dresden as all those killed by German bombing on the UK during the whole of the war.

Just because they were not as "badly hit" does not make Dresden any less of legitimate target. The Luftwaffe targetted civilians, so did the Allies (Though the latter were rather more effective at it, from the air at least.).
BTW Mr. Justice Gray, in the The Irving Judgement put the death toll in Dresden within the bracket of 25-30,000.
60,000 British civilians died in aerial bombardments, 148 were killed by cross-channel shell-fire and 30,248 died whilst in the service of the Merchant Navy*

Oswald Mosely wrote:The merchant navy was a legitimate target because it was helping to sustain the enemy's economy and food supplies. The fact that civilians were manning the ships is irrelevant - they were never targets per se.

So attacking civilian targets at sea is okay, but not on dry land? I don't see the logic in that argument. Surely the targetting of the workforce (Hence the concentration on working class districts.) is just as legitimate as targetting the raw materials? Of course, if you don't agree, then the targetting of shipping (With no knowledge of what is on those ships.) must also be wrong.

Regards from the Park,

Rich

*Source; Chronology of World War II, compiled by Christopher Argyle, Marshall-Cavendish, 1980
For Evan's demolition of Irving's vastly inflated casualty figures at Dresden see The Holocaust on Trial, History, Justice and the David Irving Libel Case by D.D. Guttenplan, Granta Books, 2001 pages 225-6 (A book, btw, that Irving described to me as "the best, which is why I co-operated with it.")

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Andy H
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Post by Andy H » 21 Jul 2002 19:07

As previously stated before the decision to bomb Dresden was agreed by the JIC in response to Russian requests to aid there advance by disrupting German communications and transport hubs within eastern Germany such as Leipzig, Chemnitz and Dresden.

In addition to this Dresden contained the Zeiss Ikon optical factory and Siemens glass factory, whilst there were also factories manufacturing radar and electronic components and fuses for AA shells. factories within the suburbs contained a gas mask factory, a Junkers engine fatory and a cockpit components manufacture for ME fighters, plus a the largest cigarette factory i Germany (Always important for morale). In total some 10,000 people were employed within the industries mentioned with at least 1,500 in the fuse factory alone. Dresden was a industrial target.

If you can't see the reason why Dresden was bombed then what possible reason was there for bombing Tokyo in March'45 that resulted in 90,000 dead?

:D Andy from the Shire

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Post by Oswald Mosley » 21 Jul 2002 21:29

Richard Murphy wrote: Just because they were not as "badly hit" does not make Dresden any less of legitimate target. The Luftwaffe targetted civilians, so did the Allies (Though the latter were rather more effective at it, from the air at least.).
BTW Mr. Justice Gray, in the The Irving Judgement put the death toll in Dresden within the bracket of 25-30,000.
60,000 British civilians died in aerial bombardments, 148 were killed by cross-channel shell-fire and 30,248 died whilst in the service of the Merchant Navy*

So attacking civilian targets at sea is okay, but not on dry land? I don't see the logic in that argument. Surely the targetting of the workforce (Hence the concentration on working class districts.) is just as legitimate as targetting the raw materials? Of course, if you don't agree, then the targetting of shipping (With no knowledge of what is on those ships.) must also be wrong.


What evidence does Judge Gray have have that 25-30,000 were killed at Dresden? He seems to have plucked a figure out of the air just because it sounds plausible (to him). Most reliable estimates point to between 50,000 and 80,000 killed.

What you say about the issue of merchant seamen is blatantaly untrue; it is your logic that is twisted. The merchant seamen chose to do that job and they knew the risks from the outset. The area bombing campaign against Germany was designed to cause terror and kill indiscriminately. It seems sheer stupidity that you can even talk about 'targetting of the workforce'! There was no targetting - nor could there be in a carpet bombing attack. Ridiculous!

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Post by Oswald Mosley » 21 Jul 2002 21:40

Cheshire Yeomanry wrote:As previously stated before the decision to bomb Dresden was agreed by the JIC in response to Russian requests to aid there advance by disrupting German communications and transport hubs within eastern Germany such as Leipzig, Chemnitz and Dresden.

In addition to this Dresden contained the Zeiss Ikon optical factory and Siemens glass factory, whilst there were also factories manufacturing radar and electronic components and fuses for AA shells. factories within the suburbs contained a gas mask factory, a Junkers engine fatory and a cockpit components manufacture for ME fighters, plus a the largest cigarette factory i Germany (Always important for morale). In total some 10,000 people were employed within the industries mentioned with at least 1,500 in the fuse factory alone. Dresden was a industrial target.

If you can't see the reason why Dresden was bombed then what possible reason was there for bombing Tokyo in March'45 that resulted in 90,000 dead?

:D Andy from the Shire


Andy,

Believe me, I feel the same way about the indiscriminate bombings of Japanese cities as I do about German ones.

Despite what you say, I cannot believe that as late as February 1945, with Allied troops already on German soil, there could be any justification for a carpet bombing attack. The war was already won. The attack on Dresden was a crime - it would treated as such if it happened in a war today, no doubt about that. Industries are destroyed in precision bombing attacks, not carpet bombing - these are designed purely to kill as many people as possible. Moreover, The planes which attacked Dresden aimed for the centre of the city, not the industrial estates.

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Post by Gott » 21 Jul 2002 21:56

Oswald Mosley wrote:
Richard Murphy wrote: Just because they were not as "badly hit" does not make Dresden any less of legitimate target. The Luftwaffe targetted civilians, so did the Allies (Though the latter were rather more effective at it, from the air at least.).
BTW Mr. Justice Gray, in the The Irving Judgement put the death toll in Dresden within the bracket of 25-30,000.
60,000 British civilians died in aerial bombardments, 148 were killed by cross-channel shell-fire and 30,248 died whilst in the service of the Merchant Navy*

So attacking civilian targets at sea is okay, but not on dry land? I don't see the logic in that argument. Surely the targetting of the workforce (Hence the concentration on working class districts.) is just as legitimate as targetting the raw materials? Of course, if you don't agree, then the targetting of shipping (With no knowledge of what is on those ships.) must also be wrong.


What evidence does Judge Gray have have that 25-30,000 were killed at Dresden? He seems to have plucked a figure out of the air just because it sounds plausible (to him). Most reliable estimates point to between 50,000 and 80,000 killed.

What you say about the issue of merchant seamen is blatantaly untrue; it is your logic that is twisted. The merchant seamen chose to do that job and they knew the risks from the outset. The area bombing campaign against Germany was designed to cause terror and kill indiscriminately. It seems sheer stupidity that you can even talk about 'targetting of the workforce'! There was no targetting - nor could there be in a carpet bombing attack. Ridiculous!


Listen here Oswald, I am a German and it is a war crime to bomb Dresden. You sound like you are supporting this war crime. I sure don't support the war crimes my country did. In WWII, all major fighting nations committed war crimes. Whether if the nations were "good" or "evil." The Germans, The Russians, the British, and quite possibly the Americans did something evil. We are all guilty of what we all did, but only us Germans were tried over this and us Germans beared all the guilt and responsibilty. I don't know how could Arthur Harris could live with his conscience. He died still defending the terror bombing of Dresden a very just thing to do. The most deserving place for him to die is not in South Afrika where he ran a shipping line, but in Spandau Prison being a cell-mate of Rudolf Hess.

...I was kidding, he shouldn't die in Spandau, but died as a low-life which I hoped he felt guilty and his countrymen should also feel the same way.

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bombing in 45

Post by admfisher » 21 Jul 2002 21:59

I am in agreement that the carpet bombing of Dresden was wrong same as some of the bombings in Japan.
How many Japanese were killed compared to the number they killed?

Overall is it possible that the Western Allies were demonstrating there air power to the Red Army? With a deterrent like carpet bombing hanging over Stalin's head he would be a little easier to handle at the surrender table.
Then we consider the A bomb. Was two necassary? Probably yes. Better two of them than repeated carpet bombing wooden cities.

But this also goes to a demonstration to the Soviets. We have the power you don't have. And will use.

If any of this makes sense then some of the Bomber Command and USAAF could almost be called war criminals.
I don't mean to say they were but when considering there actions at the end of the war, they were very heavy handed.
How many German battle groups could of been destroyed by the big bombers when, in early 45 the westren allies were having such a hard time moving forward.
':|'

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Annelie
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Post by Annelie » 22 Jul 2002 00:41

Please view this site that has an explanatory article and a table
that should be viewed.

http://airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/soi/dresden.htm

It is about US Military action on Dresden.

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Annelie
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Post by Annelie » 22 Jul 2002 00:50

The above link I gave does not seem to work.
I have checked the site and reposted

http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/soi/dresden.htm

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Post by viriato » 22 Jul 2002 13:53

Hello Gott! You wrote:

Listen here Oswald, I am a German and it is a war crime to bomb Dresden. You sound like you are supporting this war crime.


Oswald Mosley wrote:

Despite what you say, I cannot believe that as late as February 1945, with Allied troops already on German soil, there could be any justification for a carpet bombing attack. The war was already won. The attack on Dresden was a crime - it would treated as such if it happened in a war today, no doubt about that. Industries are destroyed in precision bombing attacks, not carpet bombing - these are designed purely to kill as many people as possible. Moreover, The planes which attacked Dresden aimed for the centre of the city, not the industrial estates.


I'm afraid Gott but what I read is that Oswald Mosley is condemning the bombing of Dresden, not supportung it!

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